These people make me furious. Their desire for validation must be appeased, whatever the cost to women, apparently. That AGP article be sue d nym really seems relevant to this.
Yes, absolutely. I'm sure it's the need / desire for validation which drives such movements. Sydney has hundreds of beaches and open-air swimming areas & trans identified males were perfectly happy to use them until they found out about the McIver Baths. The ferocity with which this tiny space was pursued is shocking. If it's just full of vile TERFs, why so determined to get in?? Why not direct all this time and effort into fund-raising / campaigning for a trans-only space?
100%. Completely maddening. Especially when the relevant target rolls over. I do understand why the baths have surrendered, but the lack of thought or compassion from all parties about the invisible cost - the loss of those female bathers, now and in the future, who are uncomfortable around male bodies and so will not attend - is tragic. It forces women to beat a silent retreat back inside their homes. Replaced by preening cuckoos.
They bleat on about inclusivity and diversity... when it's pointed women of certain faiths and cultures can't use the baths if it admits males and it's "Tough shit, love." It's all about males not being able to cope with women having one tiny thing just for them.
And just a follow up to this. Tone policing women is unacceptable. I have lived my entire life being oppressed by the male sex. Yes, oppressed. From a long, long list of daily harassment, verbal abuse, physical abuse and sexual assault, to micro aggressions and living in a system set up to help women fail and stay oppressed.
And, incredibly, I still manage to treat men decently. A man in the position of an average woman might well be an Incel. Women don't do Incel shit, as a sex, they mostly just get on with it.
Sometimes it is cathartic to speak the truth about the sex which has caused me misery throughout my entire life. And I will NOT be not all menned, tone policed or chastised for speaking the truth. Men as a sex are awful, bullying, hateful, angry knobs. And sometimes I just want to say it.
I hope nobody has tried to police your tone, Alice. You are perfectly entitled to express yourself freely and talk of your experiences. I'm so very sorry for everything you've been through & send you sisterly strength & solidarity. Take good care xx
Indeed. Thank you for saying this. So long as I am not breaking the law or the rules of the forum I am currently posting in, nobody should ever consider trying to tone police me or any woman. But they do.
I was going to say "well meaning" people try this, but on reflection it's never well meaning to tell someone to modify their reality founded feelings or not to speak up in order to make yourself more comfortable.
Telling women to modify their tone, speech and behaviour to be "nice" or because you think there is a more important issue is a deeply entrenched behaviour within the patriarchy. And had I spoken up directly to this person they would almost certainly have doubled down, hence adding my comment to my own comment instead. Also, I just didn't feel like giving them the respect of a reply when they were disrespectful enough to try tone policing me. It's not my job, nor my choice to explain myself to anyone whose automatic reaction is to be disrespectful enough to try to lecture me.
Quite often, in my writing, I will add a caveat at the end of a feminist leaning article to say that I am well aware of the arguments men (and handmaidens) will try to make. I will then debunk the arguments at the end of the piece by way of heading them off at the pass. I shouldn't have to, but I often do. Defenders of the patriarchy sometimes still try to lecture, derail, tone police, and whatabout, but it takes some of the effect out of their attempt when I have already predicted and addressed everything they might attempt in the article.
When I wrote that comment I knew I was taking a chance of being "not all menned", tone policed or otherwise lectured. But I thought that here, in this space, that might not happen. And it is EXHAUSTING to have to add a caveat each and every time you ever speak up about the behaviour of men. It is an added burden to always have to predict attempts to shut me down and justify my rightful disgust at the behaviour of the male sex.
The fact that I am writing this, now, which should never have had to be written though I am happy to enter dialogue with you) is part of that. Forcing upon women the emotional work of explaining, explaining, never endingly explaining why they are exhausted by their treatment by the xy sex, why sometimes they just want to say out loud that men as a sex behave like shits and be left in peace to say it.
I am always careful to say as a sex. I have spoken up repeatedly on how I think Graham is one of the good guys. I always thank men for defending women's human sex based rights. I have a male partner, a grown up son, two brothers, lots of male friends. And I should NOT have to precede my comments with those facts, or use that as a disclaimer to lend my tired outrage any authority.
The great majority of women have experienced abuse or maltreatment at the hands of men, whether that abuse is systemic and shown in micro aggressions, attitudes and sneers or at the other end of the scale of being battered, raped or assaulted, we’ve nearly all experienced it. Shutting down a conversation women are having, not giving a woman the promotion she deserves, sneering at women generally only because they are female is not nearly so deadly or terrible as physically assaulting her, but it’s all across the spectrum of what men, as a sex, do to women every single moment of every single day. It might be 1 in 10 men, or even if I am feeling generous 1 in 20, the other 19 mainly showing disinterest, disbelief or very occasionally outrage, but that 1 is more than enough to colour the entire landscape of women.
The sex of men are vastly more angry, violent and dangerous than the sex of women and they bully women incessantly. That’s just a fact. I can link to all sorts of stats and articles backing that up, but again I shouldn't have to. When I say the world is not flat I don't link to anything on that, because it's a well known and accepted fact, as should be the poor behaviour of men as a sex.
Normalising how badly men as a sex act is a good thing. You can't oppose what you don't know exists. It’s like saying men as a sex are physically stronger than women as a sex. Fact, can’t be argued against. Stating as unidsputed that men as a sex are bullying angry knobs, while not a particularly nuanced or educational discussion of male behaviour, should not be remotely controversial. I don't always feel like being nuanced and educational, sometimes I just feel like expressing how pissed off I feel. The sex of men, whatever their religion or lack of, is not safe for women, and causes a lot of harm to women (and themselves).
And all this aside, sometimes I just get tired of it all and want to say it, without being lectured by a not at all well meaning stranger, that men as a sex are awful, bullying, hateful angry knobs. The person who sees that and wants to silence me is part of the problem.
I've lived decades putting up with the shit men do, and sometimes I just want to make a comment which will cause no harm at all to anybody, anywhere, and might make me feel a little better, for a moment or two. And that's not part of any problem, and shouldn't be considered contentious, or a reason to try to tone police.
Anyway, just my thoughts over coffee at 6.26am on a cloudy Queensland morning in the Wide Brown Land.
Oh I understand. We shouldn't have to say 'Not all men' every time we try to discuss these issues. We KNOW that. No, not all men... but enough men. Ah you're in Queensland? I had a wonderful time in Queensland - Airlie, Daintree, Whitsundays, Wooroonooran, Port Douglas, Cape Tribulation etc and, of course, the obligatory diving course! Happy days. Drank far too much Bundy black though! Take care, sister xx
And those men who aren't active shitheads all too often just turn away.
Queensland is a lovely state, no doubt. Hot and sweaty, but beautiful. I've been to Port Douglas, Cairns, and went snorkelling on the Great Barrier Reef, many years ago now. Amazing experience. I live nearer to the NSW border these days, but we're looking to move to a smaller town, the traffic is pretty exhausting. I'd prefer somewhere a bit less humid too :) Been here a long time now, but never quite acclimatised. Luckiest place on earth to be with the Covid stuff. My ex husband liked an occasional Bundy, was never a fan, though I did visit the distillery once. Good times. Take care too, be careful out there xo
Such a manly act , all these wanna be women are now peeing in women only rooms. Well are they peeing or raping as well ? Is the decision going to be reconsidered when number of rape victims i.e Women goes up ?
I doubt any of the men who invade these baths will be well behaved (if they had any respect or regard for women at all they wouldn't be there). But even if they are, their very presence is going to ruin the atmosphere. I know this place well - I once spent about a month in Sydney, lodging in Coogee, & had a swim there every day. So many women for whom it was a safe & peaceful haven will now be staying away. Honestly, this has made me so sad & angry.
I guess that serves them right, no Woman should ever step in that place. That will ensure , no men , should ever be entertained in Women only spaces. No matter if they identify as Women or Deers or as other fetish fantasy of theirs.
What will it take to stop men invading women only spaces. W
What will it take for us to have penis free spaces
What is really so bad about not being able to enter into Women only spaces ? Missing out on gossips? Or dresses ?
Haha well I used to be quite an adventurer when I was younger! (Though I like to think I still have a few exciting travels ahead of me yet!)
Men have always hated women having our own spaces, our own groups, gathering together... We might start plotting to overthrow the patriarchy! And many of them still believe that the world and everything in it belongs entirely to them so if they us with something of our own, they HAVE to take it. In a lot of ways I think the men who 'identify as women' are worse - they demand our validation as well as our spaces. Double whammy.
Exactly. The very fact that they demand access to women and children is the reason they must not get it. Not all men - maybe - but THOSE men, definitely.
Quite so, Alice. That's why the "Are you going to check people's panty's at the door?" line isn't quite the 'gotcha' they think it is. We shouldn't have to check. If these people can't respect women's boundaries, all the more reason they should be kept out.
Not to mention, there is an infintesimally small amount of men who look anything like women. We don't need to check, we just need to use our eyes. And for the microscopic number of men who do "pass", nobody will know or care. Transologists are utterly illogical.
I have reported the pro-trans petition for "child sex abuse" on the grounds that children with their mothers in a women-only pool should not be forced to see any intact male unless he is (1) a lifeguard or (2) the father of the child, who should out of courtesy let his wife take their child to the pool.
I specialise in moderate, slightly old-fashioned protests. A bit like me, really!
Perhaps we could allow gay TW but not straight TW in women’s spaces. Test this at the entrance by using a pants probe to gauge reaction to male or female porn.
While fully supporting women's right to have their own spaces, this story reminded me powerfully of when the Irish feminist movement invaded the Forty Foot, a traditional men-only bathing spot in Sandycove, South Dublin, back in 1974. More info:
Sounds like Anna Brown is Australia's equivalent of Ruth Hunt who used to be the Stonewall CEO. Imagine selling out other women for a big pension and a seat in the House of Lords... And I'm afraid I think you're right - you're going to have a self ID war on your hands. Rest assured your UK sisters will be here to help and support!
Well, we should focus our anger specifically towards a certain subset of men here, transwhims, who have made resistance to their circular logic impossible.
These people make me furious. Their desire for validation must be appeased, whatever the cost to women, apparently. That AGP article be sue d nym really seems relevant to this.
Yes, absolutely. I'm sure it's the need / desire for validation which drives such movements. Sydney has hundreds of beaches and open-air swimming areas & trans identified males were perfectly happy to use them until they found out about the McIver Baths. The ferocity with which this tiny space was pursued is shocking. If it's just full of vile TERFs, why so determined to get in?? Why not direct all this time and effort into fund-raising / campaigning for a trans-only space?
100%. Completely maddening. Especially when the relevant target rolls over. I do understand why the baths have surrendered, but the lack of thought or compassion from all parties about the invisible cost - the loss of those female bathers, now and in the future, who are uncomfortable around male bodies and so will not attend - is tragic. It forces women to beat a silent retreat back inside their homes. Replaced by preening cuckoos.
They bleat on about inclusivity and diversity... when it's pointed women of certain faiths and cultures can't use the baths if it admits males and it's "Tough shit, love." It's all about males not being able to cope with women having one tiny thing just for them.
Men as a sex are awful bullying hateful angry knobs.
And just a follow up to this. Tone policing women is unacceptable. I have lived my entire life being oppressed by the male sex. Yes, oppressed. From a long, long list of daily harassment, verbal abuse, physical abuse and sexual assault, to micro aggressions and living in a system set up to help women fail and stay oppressed.
And, incredibly, I still manage to treat men decently. A man in the position of an average woman might well be an Incel. Women don't do Incel shit, as a sex, they mostly just get on with it.
Sometimes it is cathartic to speak the truth about the sex which has caused me misery throughout my entire life. And I will NOT be not all menned, tone policed or chastised for speaking the truth. Men as a sex are awful, bullying, hateful, angry knobs. And sometimes I just want to say it.
I hope nobody has tried to police your tone, Alice. You are perfectly entitled to express yourself freely and talk of your experiences. I'm so very sorry for everything you've been through & send you sisterly strength & solidarity. Take good care xx
Indeed. Thank you for saying this. So long as I am not breaking the law or the rules of the forum I am currently posting in, nobody should ever consider trying to tone police me or any woman. But they do.
I was going to say "well meaning" people try this, but on reflection it's never well meaning to tell someone to modify their reality founded feelings or not to speak up in order to make yourself more comfortable.
Telling women to modify their tone, speech and behaviour to be "nice" or because you think there is a more important issue is a deeply entrenched behaviour within the patriarchy. And had I spoken up directly to this person they would almost certainly have doubled down, hence adding my comment to my own comment instead. Also, I just didn't feel like giving them the respect of a reply when they were disrespectful enough to try tone policing me. It's not my job, nor my choice to explain myself to anyone whose automatic reaction is to be disrespectful enough to try to lecture me.
Quite often, in my writing, I will add a caveat at the end of a feminist leaning article to say that I am well aware of the arguments men (and handmaidens) will try to make. I will then debunk the arguments at the end of the piece by way of heading them off at the pass. I shouldn't have to, but I often do. Defenders of the patriarchy sometimes still try to lecture, derail, tone police, and whatabout, but it takes some of the effect out of their attempt when I have already predicted and addressed everything they might attempt in the article.
When I wrote that comment I knew I was taking a chance of being "not all menned", tone policed or otherwise lectured. But I thought that here, in this space, that might not happen. And it is EXHAUSTING to have to add a caveat each and every time you ever speak up about the behaviour of men. It is an added burden to always have to predict attempts to shut me down and justify my rightful disgust at the behaviour of the male sex.
The fact that I am writing this, now, which should never have had to be written though I am happy to enter dialogue with you) is part of that. Forcing upon women the emotional work of explaining, explaining, never endingly explaining why they are exhausted by their treatment by the xy sex, why sometimes they just want to say out loud that men as a sex behave like shits and be left in peace to say it.
I am always careful to say as a sex. I have spoken up repeatedly on how I think Graham is one of the good guys. I always thank men for defending women's human sex based rights. I have a male partner, a grown up son, two brothers, lots of male friends. And I should NOT have to precede my comments with those facts, or use that as a disclaimer to lend my tired outrage any authority.
The great majority of women have experienced abuse or maltreatment at the hands of men, whether that abuse is systemic and shown in micro aggressions, attitudes and sneers or at the other end of the scale of being battered, raped or assaulted, we’ve nearly all experienced it. Shutting down a conversation women are having, not giving a woman the promotion she deserves, sneering at women generally only because they are female is not nearly so deadly or terrible as physically assaulting her, but it’s all across the spectrum of what men, as a sex, do to women every single moment of every single day. It might be 1 in 10 men, or even if I am feeling generous 1 in 20, the other 19 mainly showing disinterest, disbelief or very occasionally outrage, but that 1 is more than enough to colour the entire landscape of women.
The sex of men are vastly more angry, violent and dangerous than the sex of women and they bully women incessantly. That’s just a fact. I can link to all sorts of stats and articles backing that up, but again I shouldn't have to. When I say the world is not flat I don't link to anything on that, because it's a well known and accepted fact, as should be the poor behaviour of men as a sex.
Normalising how badly men as a sex act is a good thing. You can't oppose what you don't know exists. It’s like saying men as a sex are physically stronger than women as a sex. Fact, can’t be argued against. Stating as unidsputed that men as a sex are bullying angry knobs, while not a particularly nuanced or educational discussion of male behaviour, should not be remotely controversial. I don't always feel like being nuanced and educational, sometimes I just feel like expressing how pissed off I feel. The sex of men, whatever their religion or lack of, is not safe for women, and causes a lot of harm to women (and themselves).
And all this aside, sometimes I just get tired of it all and want to say it, without being lectured by a not at all well meaning stranger, that men as a sex are awful, bullying, hateful angry knobs. The person who sees that and wants to silence me is part of the problem.
I've lived decades putting up with the shit men do, and sometimes I just want to make a comment which will cause no harm at all to anybody, anywhere, and might make me feel a little better, for a moment or two. And that's not part of any problem, and shouldn't be considered contentious, or a reason to try to tone police.
Anyway, just my thoughts over coffee at 6.26am on a cloudy Queensland morning in the Wide Brown Land.
Oh I understand. We shouldn't have to say 'Not all men' every time we try to discuss these issues. We KNOW that. No, not all men... but enough men. Ah you're in Queensland? I had a wonderful time in Queensland - Airlie, Daintree, Whitsundays, Wooroonooran, Port Douglas, Cape Tribulation etc and, of course, the obligatory diving course! Happy days. Drank far too much Bundy black though! Take care, sister xx
And those men who aren't active shitheads all too often just turn away.
Queensland is a lovely state, no doubt. Hot and sweaty, but beautiful. I've been to Port Douglas, Cairns, and went snorkelling on the Great Barrier Reef, many years ago now. Amazing experience. I live nearer to the NSW border these days, but we're looking to move to a smaller town, the traffic is pretty exhausting. I'd prefer somewhere a bit less humid too :) Been here a long time now, but never quite acclimatised. Luckiest place on earth to be with the Covid stuff. My ex husband liked an occasional Bundy, was never a fan, though I did visit the distillery once. Good times. Take care too, be careful out there xo
Bullies
Such a manly act , all these wanna be women are now peeing in women only rooms. Well are they peeing or raping as well ? Is the decision going to be reconsidered when number of rape victims i.e Women goes up ?
I doubt any of the men who invade these baths will be well behaved (if they had any respect or regard for women at all they wouldn't be there). But even if they are, their very presence is going to ruin the atmosphere. I know this place well - I once spent about a month in Sydney, lodging in Coogee, & had a swim there every day. So many women for whom it was a safe & peaceful haven will now be staying away. Honestly, this has made me so sad & angry.
You sound like an explorer to me JL.
I guess that serves them right, no Woman should ever step in that place. That will ensure , no men , should ever be entertained in Women only spaces. No matter if they identify as Women or Deers or as other fetish fantasy of theirs.
What will it take to stop men invading women only spaces. W
What will it take for us to have penis free spaces
What is really so bad about not being able to enter into Women only spaces ? Missing out on gossips? Or dresses ?
Haha well I used to be quite an adventurer when I was younger! (Though I like to think I still have a few exciting travels ahead of me yet!)
Men have always hated women having our own spaces, our own groups, gathering together... We might start plotting to overthrow the patriarchy! And many of them still believe that the world and everything in it belongs entirely to them so if they us with something of our own, they HAVE to take it. In a lot of ways I think the men who 'identify as women' are worse - they demand our validation as well as our spaces. Double whammy.
Exactly. The very fact that they demand access to women and children is the reason they must not get it. Not all men - maybe - but THOSE men, definitely.
Quite so, Alice. That's why the "Are you going to check people's panty's at the door?" line isn't quite the 'gotcha' they think it is. We shouldn't have to check. If these people can't respect women's boundaries, all the more reason they should be kept out.
Not to mention, there is an infintesimally small amount of men who look anything like women. We don't need to check, we just need to use our eyes. And for the microscopic number of men who do "pass", nobody will know or care. Transologists are utterly illogical.
I have reported the pro-trans petition for "child sex abuse" on the grounds that children with their mothers in a women-only pool should not be forced to see any intact male unless he is (1) a lifeguard or (2) the father of the child, who should out of courtesy let his wife take their child to the pool.
I specialise in moderate, slightly old-fashioned protests. A bit like me, really!
Perhaps we could allow gay TW but not straight TW in women’s spaces. Test this at the entrance by using a pants probe to gauge reaction to male or female porn.
It's kind of irrelevant if they're gay or straight, women should be entitled to have their own space.
Hi. Sorry, it was supposed to be a joke 😂 . I won’t give up the day job.
Probably works better in person! 🤣
I thought the ‘pants probe’ 🍆 would be a give away 😂
🤣
Yep, gay men are raised in the same misogyny as straight men. When we want men free spaces that means all men.
Yes, I agree wholeheartedly. A man's sexuality is irrelevant - he can't access women's spaces.
While fully supporting women's right to have their own spaces, this story reminded me powerfully of when the Irish feminist movement invaded the Forty Foot, a traditional men-only bathing spot in Sandycove, South Dublin, back in 1974. More info:
https://www.rte.ie/archives/exhibitions/1666-women-and-society/370228-women-invade-male-bathing-resort/
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/fortieth-anniversary-of-women-s-invasion-of-forty-foot-1.1871142
Sounds like Anna Brown is Australia's equivalent of Ruth Hunt who used to be the Stonewall CEO. Imagine selling out other women for a big pension and a seat in the House of Lords... And I'm afraid I think you're right - you're going to have a self ID war on your hands. Rest assured your UK sisters will be here to help and support!
Well, we should focus our anger specifically towards a certain subset of men here, transwhims, who have made resistance to their circular logic impossible.