"So did I, not once did we gays erase biological sex. Or demand heteros redefine heterosexuality to mean homosexuality. Or call hetero’s bigots for not having sex with us. Or teach kids to hate their own bodies. And we didn’t threaten to kill or rape women."
From what I can see - some see this as an outright assault on the freedom of others.
(Not the money people preying on people with problems...gender reassignment surgery. Or those using people to gain power eg Stonewall.)
While others can see the big picture and use joined up thinking.
If trans people take over women's spaces and try to change the terminology, they will be eroding the freedoms of women and girls.
Beside stirring up trouble with a lot of males who have wives, girlfriends, daughters etc.
Quite some time after I started being aware of all this stuff, I had a chat with a gay friend about it. He's pretty straightforward and fair-minded, and gave me his perspective on it all. It seems that for him, at least, it can be a difficult place to be - he's supportive of trans folk, but at the same time doesn't like the eroding of women's spaces and rights, and the rather forceful nature of a lot of the trans activists. He's said he has to be very diplomatic among a lot of his friends, lest he offend or get a bad reputation, though his own personal views were more on the gender-critical side of things. A shame he can't speak out, but we all have to do what works for us, I suppose.
I have a bad reputation with my gay 'friends', but I STILL argue that trans ideologies are erasing what homosexuality means. Only yesterday I saw a sticker on a Phone Box saying, 'Check your thinking - Same Sex Attraction is Transphobic'.
And I use that bad reputation to illustrate how the 'community' doesn't like dissent. It is paying off, but very slowly.
Growing up gay isn't something I experienced so I'm gonna keep shtum about that but the policing of Rosie Duffield's 'likes' infuriates me; not least because it doesn't consider any context.
I've liked tweets from Joe Biden before (no really!) so if you extrapolate their logic I'm anti-Trump (Spoiler: I'm not 😜)
But regardless of context, if the tweet wasn't promoting hate speech, violence, etc, etc, what fucking right do they have to interject? Entitled shits. That's what they are.
This is super heartening. Sometimes Gay men do feel like the enemy. I find Drag really effing offensive. So pleased to see I’m already following more than a handful of this bunch - is their a collective noun for gay men?
I'd love more of you too. The Golden Rule clarifies this pretty quickly. Why is reverse drag not a thing, women donning the stereotypes of men? There's a level where it's all in good fun, but the fun only goes in one direction.
Drag used to just be a bit of fun for the nightclubs, you know like Rocky Horror. It was never an identity. I never really got it, but I don't get how they are now trying to coopt it into Trans, because it's not.
Same goes for the mostly heterosexual men who cross-dress (transvestites). I heard someone recently in the media try to say that was Trans!
I no longer identify with most other gay men, though!!
Collective nouns... can think of a few, but they're all too rude for polite company!
I dont really have a problem with Drag. It is an act, a coarse one at that. All the drag acts I know understand they aren't women, they dont even attempt to 'act like a woman'. It is a pantomime, I dont know any woman who would put on 10cm long chandelier earrings, 5cm long eyelashes, 2 ft tall wig and strap themselves into a body con dress with 10,000 rhinestones. Maybe Shirley Bassey.
My point is, I dont think Drag is a gateway to trans. If that is the case then Bonnie Langford playing Peter Pan, has a lot to answer for. ;-)
I agree drag is not at attempt to ‘act like a woman’. But it is a parody of womanhood. The long eyelashes, fake boobs and nasty humour are all about laughing at women, their bodies and their behaviour. I think it’s a stretch to say that drag has nothing to do with women.
As an aside, for me at least, drag is rarely funny. It’s unoriginal and predictable. So it’s hard to forgive the sexism when it’s bringing nothing to the table but fanny jokes and nasty remarks, based fundamentally on tired stereotypes.
Oh, tomboy! BDSM tore the feminist community apart in the 1970s in the Boston, Massachusetts, area. Lesbians who were into it (I swear they picked it up from gay men) said it was homophobic for other women not to support them. Bev Jo, a lesbian feminist, said lesbians picked it up from straight women, but I don't think so. BDSM was not cute or hip back then, but the leather scene in gay bars existed and was well-known.
Always prefer books! I have learned so much from other people to whom I am intensely grateful.
I'm still not fully sure that cross-dressing is aping 'womanhood'.
And most of the spiteful, nastiness is part of a performance. A kind of entertainment. I dot find that spiteful element entertaining at all. But Drag can be hilarious, IF the performer is performing well.
I think its important to recognise 'camp' in all of this. Camp men are not making a commentary on women or womanhood. They use effeminate affectations, sometimes for a laugh.
I can’t watch drag. Even if I can overlook the sexism, I have never found it entertaining. They’re either lip syncing or singing not very well. It always seemed to me that drag was for men who want to perform but aren’t very good at it, so they put in the costumes.
I've said it before: Drag's greatest use is to let women see how they look as they do drag. Have you seen the athletes in false eyelashes that look like clothes brushes? How about hair color that looks just like Bozo the Clown? It saddens me that women feel the need to do this crap. And I'll bet you would have found The Club where women played all the male parts quite funny!
I need to say that some of us who have never been on all the media platforms have been talking about this issue (specifically in a L/G and feminist context) for a long time, as long as many of the women you mention.
I don't want or need thanks but it's worth pointing this out because there's a narrative developing that suggests gay men just weren't bothering to speak out and it's more accurate to say that some were but nobody was listening. Of course more lesbians spoke out in a more visible way but that is something that has always been part of lesbian history.
Nobody has bemoaned the apolitical nature of gay men more than me over the decades, but the political lesbian vs the flighty gay is a stereotype that we should resist because it's not fair.
We have much to thank former London Assembly Member Darren Johnson for aswell - it was him putting his head above the parapet in 2018 that opened a space for gender critical Greens to find each other: https://twitter.com/darrenjohnson66/status/1055438549154185216
Nightingale
"So did I, not once did we gays erase biological sex. Or demand heteros redefine heterosexuality to mean homosexuality. Or call hetero’s bigots for not having sex with us. Or teach kids to hate their own bodies. And we didn’t threaten to kill or rape women."
From what I can see - some see this as an outright assault on the freedom of others.
(Not the money people preying on people with problems...gender reassignment surgery. Or those using people to gain power eg Stonewall.)
While others can see the big picture and use joined up thinking.
If trans people take over women's spaces and try to change the terminology, they will be eroding the freedoms of women and girls.
Beside stirring up trouble with a lot of males who have wives, girlfriends, daughters etc.
Quite some time after I started being aware of all this stuff, I had a chat with a gay friend about it. He's pretty straightforward and fair-minded, and gave me his perspective on it all. It seems that for him, at least, it can be a difficult place to be - he's supportive of trans folk, but at the same time doesn't like the eroding of women's spaces and rights, and the rather forceful nature of a lot of the trans activists. He's said he has to be very diplomatic among a lot of his friends, lest he offend or get a bad reputation, though his own personal views were more on the gender-critical side of things. A shame he can't speak out, but we all have to do what works for us, I suppose.
I have a bad reputation with my gay 'friends', but I STILL argue that trans ideologies are erasing what homosexuality means. Only yesterday I saw a sticker on a Phone Box saying, 'Check your thinking - Same Sex Attraction is Transphobic'.
And I use that bad reputation to illustrate how the 'community' doesn't like dissent. It is paying off, but very slowly.
Growing up gay isn't something I experienced so I'm gonna keep shtum about that but the policing of Rosie Duffield's 'likes' infuriates me; not least because it doesn't consider any context.
I've liked tweets from Joe Biden before (no really!) so if you extrapolate their logic I'm anti-Trump (Spoiler: I'm not 😜)
But regardless of context, if the tweet wasn't promoting hate speech, violence, etc, etc, what fucking right do they have to interject? Entitled shits. That's what they are.
This is super heartening. Sometimes Gay men do feel like the enemy. I find Drag really effing offensive. So pleased to see I’m already following more than a handful of this bunch - is their a collective noun for gay men?
I’m a gay man who has always found drag offensive because of its caricaturing of, and sneering at, women.
There are some of us around - even if I’d love there to be even more of us.
I'd love more of you too. The Golden Rule clarifies this pretty quickly. Why is reverse drag not a thing, women donning the stereotypes of men? There's a level where it's all in good fun, but the fun only goes in one direction.
Drag used to just be a bit of fun for the nightclubs, you know like Rocky Horror. It was never an identity. I never really got it, but I don't get how they are now trying to coopt it into Trans, because it's not.
Same goes for the mostly heterosexual men who cross-dress (transvestites). I heard someone recently in the media try to say that was Trans!
I no longer identify with most other gay men, though!!
Collective nouns... can think of a few, but they're all too rude for polite company!
I dont really have a problem with Drag. It is an act, a coarse one at that. All the drag acts I know understand they aren't women, they dont even attempt to 'act like a woman'. It is a pantomime, I dont know any woman who would put on 10cm long chandelier earrings, 5cm long eyelashes, 2 ft tall wig and strap themselves into a body con dress with 10,000 rhinestones. Maybe Shirley Bassey.
My point is, I dont think Drag is a gateway to trans. If that is the case then Bonnie Langford playing Peter Pan, has a lot to answer for. ;-)
I agree drag is not at attempt to ‘act like a woman’. But it is a parody of womanhood. The long eyelashes, fake boobs and nasty humour are all about laughing at women, their bodies and their behaviour. I think it’s a stretch to say that drag has nothing to do with women.
As an aside, for me at least, drag is rarely funny. It’s unoriginal and predictable. So it’s hard to forgive the sexism when it’s bringing nothing to the table but fanny jokes and nasty remarks, based fundamentally on tired stereotypes.
the lesbian side of the scene is not necessarily any easier esp if you are the kind of girl/lesbian who prefers books to bondage.
Oh, tomboy! BDSM tore the feminist community apart in the 1970s in the Boston, Massachusetts, area. Lesbians who were into it (I swear they picked it up from gay men) said it was homophobic for other women not to support them. Bev Jo, a lesbian feminist, said lesbians picked it up from straight women, but I don't think so. BDSM was not cute or hip back then, but the leather scene in gay bars existed and was well-known.
Always prefer books! I have learned so much from other people to whom I am intensely grateful.
I'm still not fully sure that cross-dressing is aping 'womanhood'.
And most of the spiteful, nastiness is part of a performance. A kind of entertainment. I dot find that spiteful element entertaining at all. But Drag can be hilarious, IF the performer is performing well.
I think its important to recognise 'camp' in all of this. Camp men are not making a commentary on women or womanhood. They use effeminate affectations, sometimes for a laugh.
men are allowed to cross dress of course.
I can’t watch drag. Even if I can overlook the sexism, I have never found it entertaining. They’re either lip syncing or singing not very well. It always seemed to me that drag was for men who want to perform but aren’t very good at it, so they put in the costumes.
I've said it before: Drag's greatest use is to let women see how they look as they do drag. Have you seen the athletes in false eyelashes that look like clothes brushes? How about hair color that looks just like Bozo the Clown? It saddens me that women feel the need to do this crap. And I'll bet you would have found The Club where women played all the male parts quite funny!
I need to say that some of us who have never been on all the media platforms have been talking about this issue (specifically in a L/G and feminist context) for a long time, as long as many of the women you mention.
I don't want or need thanks but it's worth pointing this out because there's a narrative developing that suggests gay men just weren't bothering to speak out and it's more accurate to say that some were but nobody was listening. Of course more lesbians spoke out in a more visible way but that is something that has always been part of lesbian history.
Nobody has bemoaned the apolitical nature of gay men more than me over the decades, but the political lesbian vs the flighty gay is a stereotype that we should resist because it's not fair.
We have much to thank former London Assembly Member Darren Johnson for aswell - it was him putting his head above the parapet in 2018 that opened a space for gender critical Greens to find each other: https://twitter.com/darrenjohnson66/status/1055438549154185216
Terven Gentleman is excellent.
TG says Thank you!
we are increasing in numbers.