She's quite right to warn Labour they're on to a loser if they carry on like this. I do hope they'll listen to her rather than dimwitted Dawn Butler. Oh well.
I don't know about Labour, but my experience in the U.S. is that Democrats LOVE to LOSE! Biden is reneging on many promises, people will stay away from the polls in 2022 (rerun of Obama's first midterm election), and we'll be back to a Congress which thinks that a riot in the Capitol is just another day of friendly folks touring the building and that only white people have the right to vote. Is what they say about Democrats accurate about Labour? Snatching defeat from the jaws of victory? Or where social movements go to die?
Definitely true in the Corbyn era and Starmer seems to lack the appetite too. Can't knock Corbyn's ability to protest about shit though. He's an elite level protestor and that ain't no lie 😆
Met him in our respective younger days. He was a ridiculous fool then, hanging around student politics, has never had a proper job, and never seems to have developed either intellectually or politically. People still think he went to uni - he didn’t. Did a term or two at a Poly but dropped out.
As long as Labour insists it’s committed to changing the GRA to allow Self-Id the Party is toxic for women. Only if Labour drop this commitment that denies the reality of sex and of women, will it be worth voting for.
That’s right love 😂 “women’s rights and women’s priorities are never identified?”. Quite an institutional oversight. For “quite” a long time. A couple thousand years at last count.
These so called feminists are inexperienced, conditioned and have never been taught feminism. Once they realise their legal and human rights are routinely obstructed and ignored along with now being legally erased as a class as the working class has been and both in terms of representation I’m hopeful they will “get it”. There is so much for that generation to unpack and so much “noise” for them I feel for them. Not to mention the constant unrealistic expectations, oppression and workload they have without their basic needs or resource requirements being met. It’s tough for them and lateral violence within communities is the result on one another instead of looking at the institutions and poor Governance we are all subjected to and who is doing and has done that.
I have noticed that. Bearing in mind I was completely ignorant of feminist principles for 9/10ths of my life (😜) I'm already able to distinguish the legitimate feminists from the pretenders. It's easy. You can sense the passion in the text from bona-fide feminists (for example, the contributors to Glinner's threads 😉) from those who just pay lip service to what they consider to be feminist objectives (for example, Guardian journalists and assorted middle-class liberals)
It's a bit like peak Germaine Greer vs Ash Sarkar, lol
Back in the day we called them equal rights feminists and radical feminists. Equal rights feminists such as Gloria Steinem had some legitimate ideas but basically wanted women to have the same rights to dominate and exploit as men of a certain class had. Radical feminists wanted another world, one without domination and exploitation. Now we call them liberal or neoliberal feminists as opposed to radical feminists, and, yes, some of them are naive and inexperienced, but some of them know perfectly well what they stand for and are quite willing to sell women down the river in order to cater to male interests. As women have pointed out, they wouldn't listen so submissively to trans-identified males if they really thought the TIMs were women.
Ruth is right about one a crux of the problem- all these agencies and organisations jumped the gun to be woke and started acting as if self ID was the law or a done deal when it wasn't. It was just a proposal. A proposal that never became law and now they need to roll back but that's easier said than done. If only they'd all just held fire and waited until the decision on self ID was actually made.
It was a close thing with that idiot Theresa May. Luckily they pulled that idiocy back, which is the one good think about Johnson's government. Thank you Liz Truss I think.
Isn't it dreadful how we've actually been forced become the same as those activists? Forced to focus on identity politics when we should be looking at the bigger picture. I love Labour and the Greens and everything they stand for, bar this fundamental attitude. I wish they would see sense.
Unfortunately both parties have been hijacked by people with ideas that border on gender fascism. Greens seem to be ignoring the environment and Labour ignoring socialism 😤
Labour (and liberal feminism) is full of something I've just learned there's a word for. Brocialism. 😁
"Have you ever been speaking and been abruptly interrupted by a left-wing man? Have you ever made an intervention during a debate with left-wing men only to find that your legitimate comment has been totally ignored? Have you ever defended equal representation with a man of your politics, only to be told by him that ‘if I were a woman, I would be angry that the only reason I was successful was my gender’? Have you ever been a victim of ‘mansplaining’ by a so-called left-wing, male intellectual?"
Shame the women still in Labour but fighting for our rights to exist dont start the new new Labour party cos this one is never gonna change even if the ECHR investigate
The influence Stonewall has had on Labour is so obvious it isn't funny. Acting as they would "like" the law to be rather than what it actually is... sound familiar?
I wonder if actual trans people think the process of getting a Gender Recognition Certificate is outdated, harmful, humiliating etc, or is it just those keen on self-id (who have no plan to transition) that object to it?
It's awful how this proposal has undermined women's rights and framed concerns as hate and bigotry. Transphobe is the new nazi, an insult used to silence objection, debate, and in this case, largely women.
In some ways I hope the Labour Party loses so spectacularly that they fall apart. They need so much restructuring and cleaning house that it would be easier to completely start from scratch.
There are a few "old school" style Transsexuals who view the GRA as useful for officially identifying someone who has gone through "gender transition". Most of those also know fully well what their birth sex is and know it does not change. They worry that "Self ID" with no checks or balances, no real investigation as to *why* someone would want to "change their sex presentation", damages those who genuinely have a dysphoria and the "sex presentation" is the last resort after **years** of effective practice.
Their voices get dismissed by the gender ideology crowd.
We effectively have a group of people who demand a "personality" trait to be legalised as an official "Thing" and do not care about anyone else. That includes, old school transsexuals, LGB, Women, Children and indeed majority of men too.
I liken the process to immigrating to a new country. It's a long, expensive journey, often filled with awkward questions and assumptions, sometimes invasive of our personal and financial circumstances, but if it's something we want, we have to be willing to see it through and play by the rules to get the result we want. I can't just move to Australia and declare/identity as a citizen and be given the privileges that go with it.
I completely agree with you and transsexual is a perfectly fine term (to differentiate from transvestites).
I must say, some gender critical women (I'm on a FB group) refuse to even give transsexuals any leeway, which I think is counterproductive. People who have gone through the whole process would be very useful to have on our side and plenty of them view the transgender fraudsters with the same distrust as we do. I often get challenged by some feminists for my views and I feel they fall into the same trap as the trans/activists by lumping transsexuals and 'transbloodygenders' in the same group.
I'm a radical feminist, Catherine, and I agree with you. Most of these men calling themselves transgender are not going through any process, just putting on the makeup and lingerie so they can wank away to their own image.
It's great to know, thank you Susan. Love the bit about wanking to their own image: it calls up those posts where they take numerous selfies (no mates to photograph them) in their mirror.
I got a bit distracted by the cute anthropomorphic cabinet that made an appearance in the background during the second half, but you can't have everything.
Good sound common sense. I was lucky enough to find Ruth soon after I peaked and she was very helpful. I have a ticket to the Women's Conference too (I'm a Labour Party member), held online this year. I'm looking forward to it . Glad I didn't leave the party, as I was inclined to after Starmer's statement the other day. I still might but this clip gives me hope, anyway.
Can any Labourite tell me Jess Phillips's take on the madness? Firstly, she's my MP so I have agency regarding a complaint if she's on board the gender train.
Secondly, if she is on board with it, as a self-proclaimed über feminist she's got a lot of explaining to do.
Yes, it makes her reading of the names of women who have died as the result of men's violence a bit hard to take if it's not backed up by policies to protect women.
No genuine feminist should even be in a Party that refuses to support women. I meet too many women who, whilst proclaiming they’re “feminists” don’t actually behave as one.
They're not very good at labels that party. Not only do they self-identity as feminists when they're anything but, they also wrongly identify anyone and everyone they disagree with as "racists" 🤪
From what I remember she said something dumb on a Mumsnet thread. She agrees to women's spaces but thinks on individual cases, some transwomen should be let in. Don't quote me on that though. The backlash was strong enough for her to drop out of the leadership contest. So you can bet your arse she is aware of all this.
FWIW I emailed my local Labour MP (a woman) to express dismay at the party leadership's commitment to liberalising the GRA and gender self ID for all the reasons that everyone here will be familiar with and I made the same point as Ruth Woodall: that Labour is in a bad enough position as it is and that it can't afford to alienate even more voters than it already has.
I didn't get a response yet but I'm guessing that's more to do with a female MP not wanting to put anything in an email that might be used against her by the more militant TRAs.
You’re all being so kind in the UK considering the number of Covid deaths as well too complete shysters and idiots. Politicians and media still all seemingly have speech impediments “and and and” “erm erm” , repeat themselves and have tics and stutters. Take a listen carefully to Parliament and commentators.These people are a bit weird. These are your leaders 😂😂. Most are also obese.
Just tagging it on to this thread but so relieved to see the male writer of Detransition Baby has not made it onto the shortlist of the Women’s Prize for fiction. They were obviously put on the long list as a box ticking exercise. Funnily enough - none of the online book clubs I’m in have recommended it? Wonder why?
She's quite right to warn Labour they're on to a loser if they carry on like this. I do hope they'll listen to her rather than dimwitted Dawn Butler. Oh well.
I don't know about Labour, but my experience in the U.S. is that Democrats LOVE to LOSE! Biden is reneging on many promises, people will stay away from the polls in 2022 (rerun of Obama's first midterm election), and we'll be back to a Congress which thinks that a riot in the Capitol is just another day of friendly folks touring the building and that only white people have the right to vote. Is what they say about Democrats accurate about Labour? Snatching defeat from the jaws of victory? Or where social movements go to die?
I definitely get the feeling that Labour don't actually want to win.
Definitely true in the Corbyn era and Starmer seems to lack the appetite too. Can't knock Corbyn's ability to protest about shit though. He's an elite level protestor and that ain't no lie 😆
Met him in our respective younger days. He was a ridiculous fool then, hanging around student politics, has never had a proper job, and never seems to have developed either intellectually or politically. People still think he went to uni - he didn’t. Did a term or two at a Poly but dropped out.
Dawn "babies don't have a biological sex" Butler 🤪
Je suis clownfish.
Hahaha!
As long as Labour insists it’s committed to changing the GRA to allow Self-Id the Party is toxic for women. Only if Labour drop this commitment that denies the reality of sex and of women, will it be worth voting for.
That’s right love 😂 “women’s rights and women’s priorities are never identified?”. Quite an institutional oversight. For “quite” a long time. A couple thousand years at last count.
Noticing patterns of behaviour and calling them out is misandry. /s
😏
😂 so THEY say.
Nice ... I was going to say pun but it's not strictly a pun so ... nice jibe? Yeah, that's the one! Nice JIBE! 😛
Yeah but before it was men driving it ... now it's quisling "feminists".
These so called feminists are inexperienced, conditioned and have never been taught feminism. Once they realise their legal and human rights are routinely obstructed and ignored along with now being legally erased as a class as the working class has been and both in terms of representation I’m hopeful they will “get it”. There is so much for that generation to unpack and so much “noise” for them I feel for them. Not to mention the constant unrealistic expectations, oppression and workload they have without their basic needs or resource requirements being met. It’s tough for them and lateral violence within communities is the result on one another instead of looking at the institutions and poor Governance we are all subjected to and who is doing and has done that.
I have noticed that. Bearing in mind I was completely ignorant of feminist principles for 9/10ths of my life (😜) I'm already able to distinguish the legitimate feminists from the pretenders. It's easy. You can sense the passion in the text from bona-fide feminists (for example, the contributors to Glinner's threads 😉) from those who just pay lip service to what they consider to be feminist objectives (for example, Guardian journalists and assorted middle-class liberals)
It's a bit like peak Germaine Greer vs Ash Sarkar, lol
Back in the day we called them equal rights feminists and radical feminists. Equal rights feminists such as Gloria Steinem had some legitimate ideas but basically wanted women to have the same rights to dominate and exploit as men of a certain class had. Radical feminists wanted another world, one without domination and exploitation. Now we call them liberal or neoliberal feminists as opposed to radical feminists, and, yes, some of them are naive and inexperienced, but some of them know perfectly well what they stand for and are quite willing to sell women down the river in order to cater to male interests. As women have pointed out, they wouldn't listen so submissively to trans-identified males if they really thought the TIMs were women.
Eloquently put 👍
Ruth is right about one a crux of the problem- all these agencies and organisations jumped the gun to be woke and started acting as if self ID was the law or a done deal when it wasn't. It was just a proposal. A proposal that never became law and now they need to roll back but that's easier said than done. If only they'd all just held fire and waited until the decision on self ID was actually made.
It was a close thing with that idiot Theresa May. Luckily they pulled that idiocy back, which is the one good think about Johnson's government. Thank you Liz Truss I think.
I won’t ever vote for Labour again unless they drop their commitment to self ID.
Isn't it dreadful how we've actually been forced become the same as those activists? Forced to focus on identity politics when we should be looking at the bigger picture. I love Labour and the Greens and everything they stand for, bar this fundamental attitude. I wish they would see sense.
Unfortunately both parties have been hijacked by people with ideas that border on gender fascism. Greens seem to be ignoring the environment and Labour ignoring socialism 😤
Labour is so determined to walk off the gender cliff like lemmings.
Labour (and liberal feminism) is full of something I've just learned there's a word for. Brocialism. 😁
"Have you ever been speaking and been abruptly interrupted by a left-wing man? Have you ever made an intervention during a debate with left-wing men only to find that your legitimate comment has been totally ignored? Have you ever defended equal representation with a man of your politics, only to be told by him that ‘if I were a woman, I would be angry that the only reason I was successful was my gender’? Have you ever been a victim of ‘mansplaining’ by a so-called left-wing, male intellectual?"
https://www.youngfabians.org.uk/labour_s_women_s_problem
Many a times
Shame the women still in Labour but fighting for our rights to exist dont start the new new Labour party cos this one is never gonna change even if the ECHR investigate
The influence Stonewall has had on Labour is so obvious it isn't funny. Acting as they would "like" the law to be rather than what it actually is... sound familiar?
I wonder if actual trans people think the process of getting a Gender Recognition Certificate is outdated, harmful, humiliating etc, or is it just those keen on self-id (who have no plan to transition) that object to it?
It's awful how this proposal has undermined women's rights and framed concerns as hate and bigotry. Transphobe is the new nazi, an insult used to silence objection, debate, and in this case, largely women.
In some ways I hope the Labour Party loses so spectacularly that they fall apart. They need so much restructuring and cleaning house that it would be easier to completely start from scratch.
There are a few "old school" style Transsexuals who view the GRA as useful for officially identifying someone who has gone through "gender transition". Most of those also know fully well what their birth sex is and know it does not change. They worry that "Self ID" with no checks or balances, no real investigation as to *why* someone would want to "change their sex presentation", damages those who genuinely have a dysphoria and the "sex presentation" is the last resort after **years** of effective practice.
Their voices get dismissed by the gender ideology crowd.
We effectively have a group of people who demand a "personality" trait to be legalised as an official "Thing" and do not care about anyone else. That includes, old school transsexuals, LGB, Women, Children and indeed majority of men too.
I liken the process to immigrating to a new country. It's a long, expensive journey, often filled with awkward questions and assumptions, sometimes invasive of our personal and financial circumstances, but if it's something we want, we have to be willing to see it through and play by the rules to get the result we want. I can't just move to Australia and declare/identity as a citizen and be given the privileges that go with it.
I completely agree with you and transsexual is a perfectly fine term (to differentiate from transvestites).
I must say, some gender critical women (I'm on a FB group) refuse to even give transsexuals any leeway, which I think is counterproductive. People who have gone through the whole process would be very useful to have on our side and plenty of them view the transgender fraudsters with the same distrust as we do. I often get challenged by some feminists for my views and I feel they fall into the same trap as the trans/activists by lumping transsexuals and 'transbloodygenders' in the same group.
I'm a radical feminist, Catherine, and I agree with you. Most of these men calling themselves transgender are not going through any process, just putting on the makeup and lingerie so they can wank away to their own image.
It's great to know, thank you Susan. Love the bit about wanking to their own image: it calls up those posts where they take numerous selfies (no mates to photograph them) in their mirror.
You gotsa get her on the Mess, you gotsa.
I got a bit distracted by the cute anthropomorphic cabinet that made an appearance in the background during the second half, but you can't have everything.
Good sound common sense. I was lucky enough to find Ruth soon after I peaked and she was very helpful. I have a ticket to the Women's Conference too (I'm a Labour Party member), held online this year. I'm looking forward to it . Glad I didn't leave the party, as I was inclined to after Starmer's statement the other day. I still might but this clip gives me hope, anyway.
Doesn’t me. Left the party in disgust a while ago.
I've a friend who left it for the same reasons.
Thousands of us have according to my info. Sad, but why support a Party that doesn’t, and won’t support us.
Can any Labourite tell me Jess Phillips's take on the madness? Firstly, she's my MP so I have agency regarding a complaint if she's on board the gender train.
Secondly, if she is on board with it, as a self-proclaimed über feminist she's got a lot of explaining to do.
Yes, it makes her reading of the names of women who have died as the result of men's violence a bit hard to take if it's not backed up by policies to protect women.
No genuine feminist should even be in a Party that refuses to support women. I meet too many women who, whilst proclaiming they’re “feminists” don’t actually behave as one.
They're not very good at labels that party. Not only do they self-identity as feminists when they're anything but, they also wrongly identify anyone and everyone they disagree with as "racists" 🤪
From what I remember she said something dumb on a Mumsnet thread. She agrees to women's spaces but thinks on individual cases, some transwomen should be let in. Don't quote me on that though. The backlash was strong enough for her to drop out of the leadership contest. So you can bet your arse she is aware of all this.
FWIW I emailed my local Labour MP (a woman) to express dismay at the party leadership's commitment to liberalising the GRA and gender self ID for all the reasons that everyone here will be familiar with and I made the same point as Ruth Woodall: that Labour is in a bad enough position as it is and that it can't afford to alienate even more voters than it already has.
I didn't get a response yet but I'm guessing that's more to do with a female MP not wanting to put anything in an email that might be used against her by the more militant TRAs.
You’re all being so kind in the UK considering the number of Covid deaths as well too complete shysters and idiots. Politicians and media still all seemingly have speech impediments “and and and” “erm erm” , repeat themselves and have tics and stutters. Take a listen carefully to Parliament and commentators.These people are a bit weird. These are your leaders 😂😂. Most are also obese.
What does being obese have to do with anything?
Just tagging it on to this thread but so relieved to see the male writer of Detransition Baby has not made it onto the shortlist of the Women’s Prize for fiction. They were obviously put on the long list as a box ticking exercise. Funnily enough - none of the online book clubs I’m in have recommended it? Wonder why?