All the investigative journalists you’d expect to be having a field day with this… it’s just such a disappointment. It’s mostly silence or this sort of shit! I feel gaslit. I really do.
I heard it and basically the guy he centred it on was the one that pushed his way in and ruined it for everyone but he was never actually challenged about why he wouldn't just leave women to have something of their own to enjoy. Completely skipping over the tragedy of the murders was unbelievable.
It was all about him, and I do feel for the guy, but you shouldn't be acknowledged as a woman just because you're suffering any more than you should be acknowledged as a kayak. He isn't a kayak, and he isn't woman. His suffering is his own thing. Them's the breaks.
There were a number of men who made their way into MichFest. When they disrobed -- women could run around the encampment naked and many did -- of course all pretense was gone. The actual remaining founder, whose land was used for the festival, said she was tired; she had done all of the organizing for years and it was a lot of work.
I listened to the broadcast and I’m stunned that Ronson carefully picked his way round the murders of these women & the young man by a Transwoman / Trans identified male. These stories about TIMs give the expression ‘The elephant on the table’ a whole new meaning. The rapist in the court room. The men in women’s prisons & sport. The omissions by him & the BBC are are obvious and glaring. I’m so glad you & your team are shining a light on ‘the awkward stuff’. Just when we thought the barrel was empty ....
I listened to that today Graham but did not know about Dana Rivers. We keep thinking that nothing can now surprise or shock us but that omission is a disgrace. I wonder if we wrote into Feedback if they would air the omission or ignore it.
Do it! I listened to the broadcast and I’m stunned that Ronson picked his way round the murders of these women & the young man by a Transwoman / Trans identified male. These stories about TIMs give the expression ‘The elephant on the table’ a whole new meaning. The rapist in the court room. The men in women’s prisons & sport. The omissions by him & the BBC are are obvious and biased. I’ll be writing.
And it ends with (a trans identified male - ? - it was a confusing listen) saying 'my psyche integrates in the female role'. Cue end titles...so what exactly is the female role Jon? Hey! Is the answer whatever we say it is? Whatever men say it is, and a man's role is whatever women say it is? It's all just a blur of perception innit. So gender or gender roles are meaningless terms.
And sex-based differences are still and always will be as they are.
".so what exactly is the female role Jon?" Yep, that's the clincher, isn't it? Want to bet it's some variation on the disgusting view of femaleness of prominent TIM, Andrea Long Chu? Or, the shallow, bimb-a-fied understanding of what it means to be woman according to TIM, Caitlyn Jenner?
I suspect they been submissive, compliant and liking being objectified, which if they were actually a woman, they'd know isn't true for the vast majoirty of us that aren't abused into beleiving those roles are the only ones open to us (in in some cases are the only roles open to us).
Lots of stuff about how kind & lovely Camp Trans was... nothing about the vandalism & disruption of Mich Fest when trans women were allowed I . Nothing about the murders.
I believe “Dana” Rivera has been dropped in the “Never really trans” memory hole, the same as Christopher Hambrook.
Oh no, not *those* trans they're not the *real* trans. That's this 'not all XYZ' tack. Not all men murder and rape, no, nothing to see here. Not all women murder so let the murdering abusers off! Don't tar us all with the same brush! So therefore don't tar roads either as they might identify with being upset. Poor, marginalised, vulnerable, brave and strong roads.
May the wind be at your back as the road rises up to greet you!
It’s often pointed out that with self-ID, the difference between a man who believes he is a woman & a man who lies that he’s a woman is, objectively, nothing we can test.
It looks like TRAs have developed a test: let him in to women’s spaces. If he rapes some & gets caught (and the bar for this is sky-high), he’s not trans.
1860 days....5 years, 1 month, and 4 days have passed since trans-identifying male Dana Rivers murdered the lesbian couple, Patricia Wright and Charlotte Reed, and their 19-year-old adopted son, Toto Diambu...and, still, no real justice for the victims...no closure the victims' loved ones. Rivers has remained in jail in Alameda County, California, during this time ...possibly ...presumably ...in the women's facility, and a trial to determine his guilt has yet to take place. Justice authorities said that COVID was responsible for the delays, but...come on...the crime happened in 2016, for Pete's Sake. It would be interesting to discover if other crimes of comparable atrocity and noterioty were equally delayed in Alameda County during the COVID era.
Another consideration is the issue of Rivers's sanity (if his lawyer urges him to plead "guilty by reason of insanity" for less onerous punishment): it's probably very hard to find a competent psychiatrist willing to examine him, this case is so explosive. And, no matter what determination the psychiatrist makes, she or he may be in for a load of trouble from the gender identity lobby. If the psychiatrist rules mental incapacity, then this reflects very poorly on the legitimacy of subjective trans identities; but, if the psychiatrist rules that he is sane, then that reflects abysmally on his character...he, one of the most prominent and earliest trans - identifying trans activists in the San Francisco-Bay Area.
I would love to see this story gain more traction...more publicity: for justice...for closure...and, of course, for the very clear separation between the interests and well being of lesbians, adult human females, and those of trans-identifying males it displays.
Disappointing, but predictable, that Ronson also did not challenge the "both sides" narrative about what happened at Speakers Corner in September 2017.
No, there were not "violent clashes" (I think that was the turn of phrase).
A woman who was waiting to go to a meeting was attacked by several men. One of them was prosecuted and convicted and what happened is a matter of public record as well as being recorded on video.
I thought it was balanced. It’s worth keeping in mind that Dana Rivers is still awaiting trial. You can’t put out a documentary accusing someone of murder before the case has been heard.
FWIW, and if you're interested in the truth of the matter you may want to ammend your article, the victims weren't founders of Michfest, they'd just attended.
The killer had protested Michfest at Camp Trans, in 2000, 9 years after the events Ronson is exploring, 16 years before Michfest closed, and 20 years before the murders. The killer and the victims were acquaintances with a personal history that had nothing to do with Michfest, and there's no evidence Michfest or feminist / trans ideological differences were involved at all in the motive for the crime.
I'm not aware of any personal history other than that Rivers stalked them. I wouldn't call that personal history; it's a crime. And of course ideological differences were involved. He didn't stalk a straight couple, he deliberately stalked a lesbian couple who had regularly attended MichFest because he fancies himself a lesbian. It makes me sick to even write that.
The police said that they believed there had been a property dispute between the parties and one of the couples surviving sons said Reed was an acquaintance of the victims. We’ll know soon, the next court date is tomorrow, but as of now the link with the Reed protesting at Michfest, two decades before the murder, is supposition with no backing evidence. The expectation that Ronson should make that connection is bananas.
His entire schtick is connections. He'd have found a way to weave that one in as easily as you inserted 'bananas' as a nod to the TRA chuckle gallery, all parping approval in their clown cars.
"there's no evidence Michfest or feminist / trans ideological differences were involved at all in the motive for the crime." As Reed and Wright were regular attendees of Mitchfest, and Rivers was a participant in Camp Trans, the group which sought to end Mitchfest because it centered women (adult human females), it's more than reasonable to assume that feminist / trans ideological differences were in play.
"Police found Rivers drenched in blood and running from the doorway of the house. He was in possession of knives, ammunition, and metal knuckles. The house was on fire. Inside the house, the police found two women whose bodies were riddled with bullets and stab wounds. They also found a young man laid out in front of the house who had been shot to death. Rivers has been charged with numerous serious and violent offenses, including murder and arson.
The victims: Patricia Wright and Charlotte Reed, a married lesbian couple, and Toto Diambu (known as Benny Diambu-Wright), their 19-year-old son."
My heart goes out to poor, poor Dana Rivers, and to TRA shills everywhere if I'm honest.
Erasure of the record. Online equivalent is let's just delete a few Tweets and no one will know anyone defended that. Never happened. No link to delusional mental health issues, jealousy of the sex your obsessional focus gloms onto or what you perceive you 'identify' with, a disconnect with reality, extreme violence, gun obsession, revenge, murder or sexual assault. Oh no no no. Move along now. Nooootthing to see here. What does escalation mean again?
Everything. It could have been mentioned with appropriate caveats. In the same way as you might report, "Although Mr Stalin has not been brought to trial, 2-3 million are thought to have died during the Great Terror..." a decent journalist could have easily assembled a comprehensive assessment of the alleged circumstances of this man's arrest.
First, this is not a journalistic website. When the actual journals don't adhere to basic journalistic practices, why would a Substack account criticizing gender ideology have to? Do you have high standards for nonjournalists and no standards for actual journalists? As far as I know, this is either not being covered or only covered minimally by U.S. media.
Rivers IS accused in Alameda County Superior Court of murder and arson. He IS STANDING trial on those charges, right now, even though the trial date has not been set yet.
But, you can put out a documentary stating the facts at the scene of the crime as reported by the police.* And, as this case has taken so long to come to trial, thereby denying the victims and their loved ones justice and closure, a documentary looking into the crime AND the reasons this case has yet to be tried seems like a mighty fine idea to me.
*According to the police: Just after midnight on November 11, 2016, police received reports about gunshots being fired at a home on Dunbar Drive, in Oakland, California. When they responded, they found Rivers drenched in blood and running from the doorway of the house. He was in possession of knives, ammunition, and metal knuckles. The house was on fire. Inside the house, the police found two women whose bodies were riddled with bullets and stab wounds. They also found a young man laid out in front of the house who had been shot to death. Rivers has been charged with numerous serious and violent offenses, including murder and arson.
Out of interest, when he asked you, did he give an indication of where he thought you might fit into the narrative? Do you still think it was a bad-faith invitation?
Bad faith isn’t quite the right word. He simply could not address any of the issues. It was like fighting jelly. He has that full on genderist/Scientologist thousand yard stare.
His journalism is steeped in story telling. The butterfly effect was enjoyable. But unbelievably reductive. And misleading. You’d come away thinking porn was all good natured and about people making custom videos for stamp collectors.
And now he’s done the same with the ‘culture wars’ like a low rent Adam Curtis he finds a story and then staples it to a constructed cultural narrative whether it’s true or not.
It would be like telling the story of the suffragettes from the point of view of the jockey on the horse that killed Emily Davison. Yes it’s a thing that happened in that story. And the jockey was involved. But its use as a lens, whilst compelling, is reductive and misleading.
I think you could construe his approach as bad faith. If we take his remonstration of Alice Moore over the Roger McGough poem…that wasn’t okay what he did. And was definitely an act of bad faith. What’s to say he wouldn’t have tried the same with you? Yes he’s a jelly - until he thinks he’s got you - and then he’s a lot more prickly and clever.
I didn't like him at the beginning but got used to his oblique way of connecting things and showing you how fallible extreme people can be. He doesn't poke the nest without full protective gear on. Quite common for all but the most talented of bee keepers. I haven't listened to it yet btw, but have the rest. Again, I'm not Jon Ronson.
All the investigative journalists you’d expect to be having a field day with this… it’s just such a disappointment. It’s mostly silence or this sort of shit! I feel gaslit. I really do.
I hope Nolan investigates does a follow up.
gutless. All of them.
I heard it and basically the guy he centred it on was the one that pushed his way in and ruined it for everyone but he was never actually challenged about why he wouldn't just leave women to have something of their own to enjoy. Completely skipping over the tragedy of the murders was unbelievable.
It was all about him, and I do feel for the guy, but you shouldn't be acknowledged as a woman just because you're suffering any more than you should be acknowledged as a kayak. He isn't a kayak, and he isn't woman. His suffering is his own thing. Them's the breaks.
There were a number of men who made their way into MichFest. When they disrobed -- women could run around the encampment naked and many did -- of course all pretense was gone. The actual remaining founder, whose land was used for the festival, said she was tired; she had done all of the organizing for years and it was a lot of work.
I listened to the broadcast and I’m stunned that Ronson carefully picked his way round the murders of these women & the young man by a Transwoman / Trans identified male. These stories about TIMs give the expression ‘The elephant on the table’ a whole new meaning. The rapist in the court room. The men in women’s prisons & sport. The omissions by him & the BBC are are obvious and glaring. I’m so glad you & your team are shining a light on ‘the awkward stuff’. Just when we thought the barrel was empty ....
I listened to that today Graham but did not know about Dana Rivers. We keep thinking that nothing can now surprise or shock us but that omission is a disgrace. I wonder if we wrote into Feedback if they would air the omission or ignore it.
Do it! I listened to the broadcast and I’m stunned that Ronson picked his way round the murders of these women & the young man by a Transwoman / Trans identified male. These stories about TIMs give the expression ‘The elephant on the table’ a whole new meaning. The rapist in the court room. The men in women’s prisons & sport. The omissions by him & the BBC are are obvious and biased. I’ll be writing.
And it ends with (a trans identified male - ? - it was a confusing listen) saying 'my psyche integrates in the female role'. Cue end titles...so what exactly is the female role Jon? Hey! Is the answer whatever we say it is? Whatever men say it is, and a man's role is whatever women say it is? It's all just a blur of perception innit. So gender or gender roles are meaningless terms.
And sex-based differences are still and always will be as they are.
".so what exactly is the female role Jon?" Yep, that's the clincher, isn't it? Want to bet it's some variation on the disgusting view of femaleness of prominent TIM, Andrea Long Chu? Or, the shallow, bimb-a-fied understanding of what it means to be woman according to TIM, Caitlyn Jenner?
Hey what would I know! I'm just a woman! Tch!
I suspect they been submissive, compliant and liking being objectified, which if they were actually a woman, they'd know isn't true for the vast majoirty of us that aren't abused into beleiving those roles are the only ones open to us (in in some cases are the only roles open to us).
Lots of stuff about how kind & lovely Camp Trans was... nothing about the vandalism & disruption of Mich Fest when trans women were allowed I . Nothing about the murders.
I believe “Dana” Rivera has been dropped in the “Never really trans” memory hole, the same as Christopher Hambrook.
Oh no, not *those* trans they're not the *real* trans. That's this 'not all XYZ' tack. Not all men murder and rape, no, nothing to see here. Not all women murder so let the murdering abusers off! Don't tar us all with the same brush! So therefore don't tar roads either as they might identify with being upset. Poor, marginalised, vulnerable, brave and strong roads.
May the wind be at your back as the road rises up to greet you!
*I am giving the road the additional anthropomorphised ability to talk as it meets you
It’s often pointed out that with self-ID, the difference between a man who believes he is a woman & a man who lies that he’s a woman is, objectively, nothing we can test.
It looks like TRAs have developed a test: let him in to women’s spaces. If he rapes some & gets caught (and the bar for this is sky-high), he’s not trans.
I did a scan listen...I thought it would be a woke wishy washy no hurty feelings and it was!
No teeth in it...just blah.
https://gript.ie/mcentee-confirms-biological-males-can-be-put-into-female-prisons/
These men sound like they need to be in a prison for the criminally insane, not any regular prison.
Trying to listen to this and not weep - Small Things Like These by Claire Keegan
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0012fsn
"I have friends on both sides... but lets just listen to the TRAs for a bit... oh... times up".
1860 days....5 years, 1 month, and 4 days have passed since trans-identifying male Dana Rivers murdered the lesbian couple, Patricia Wright and Charlotte Reed, and their 19-year-old adopted son, Toto Diambu...and, still, no real justice for the victims...no closure the victims' loved ones. Rivers has remained in jail in Alameda County, California, during this time ...possibly ...presumably ...in the women's facility, and a trial to determine his guilt has yet to take place. Justice authorities said that COVID was responsible for the delays, but...come on...the crime happened in 2016, for Pete's Sake. It would be interesting to discover if other crimes of comparable atrocity and noterioty were equally delayed in Alameda County during the COVID era.
Another consideration is the issue of Rivers's sanity (if his lawyer urges him to plead "guilty by reason of insanity" for less onerous punishment): it's probably very hard to find a competent psychiatrist willing to examine him, this case is so explosive. And, no matter what determination the psychiatrist makes, she or he may be in for a load of trouble from the gender identity lobby. If the psychiatrist rules mental incapacity, then this reflects very poorly on the legitimacy of subjective trans identities; but, if the psychiatrist rules that he is sane, then that reflects abysmally on his character...he, one of the most prominent and earliest trans - identifying trans activists in the San Francisco-Bay Area.
I would love to see this story gain more traction...more publicity: for justice...for closure...and, of course, for the very clear separation between the interests and well being of lesbians, adult human females, and those of trans-identifying males it displays.
Y'all see my avatar?
That's my shocked face.
Disappointing, but predictable, that Ronson also did not challenge the "both sides" narrative about what happened at Speakers Corner in September 2017.
No, there were not "violent clashes" (I think that was the turn of phrase).
A woman who was waiting to go to a meeting was attacked by several men. One of them was prosecuted and convicted and what happened is a matter of public record as well as being recorded on video.
https://www.peaktrans.org/what-happened-at-speakers-corner/
I thought it was balanced. It’s worth keeping in mind that Dana Rivers is still awaiting trial. You can’t put out a documentary accusing someone of murder before the case has been heard.
it's a major ommission to not even mention it
FWIW, and if you're interested in the truth of the matter you may want to ammend your article, the victims weren't founders of Michfest, they'd just attended.
The killer had protested Michfest at Camp Trans, in 2000, 9 years after the events Ronson is exploring, 16 years before Michfest closed, and 20 years before the murders. The killer and the victims were acquaintances with a personal history that had nothing to do with Michfest, and there's no evidence Michfest or feminist / trans ideological differences were involved at all in the motive for the crime.
oh shit, thank you
I don't know where that got into my head but I can't seem to shake it
but I disagree that it had nothing to do with Michfest. It had EVERYTHING to do with it
YES!
I'm not aware of any personal history other than that Rivers stalked them. I wouldn't call that personal history; it's a crime. And of course ideological differences were involved. He didn't stalk a straight couple, he deliberately stalked a lesbian couple who had regularly attended MichFest because he fancies himself a lesbian. It makes me sick to even write that.
The police said that they believed there had been a property dispute between the parties and one of the couples surviving sons said Reed was an acquaintance of the victims. We’ll know soon, the next court date is tomorrow, but as of now the link with the Reed protesting at Michfest, two decades before the murder, is supposition with no backing evidence. The expectation that Ronson should make that connection is bananas.
His entire schtick is connections. He'd have found a way to weave that one in as easily as you inserted 'bananas' as a nod to the TRA chuckle gallery, all parping approval in their clown cars.
The festival ended several years ago. Are you saying Rivers stopped going to Trans Camp?
"there's no evidence Michfest or feminist / trans ideological differences were involved at all in the motive for the crime." As Reed and Wright were regular attendees of Mitchfest, and Rivers was a participant in Camp Trans, the group which sought to end Mitchfest because it centered women (adult human females), it's more than reasonable to assume that feminist / trans ideological differences were in play.
Of course you can. He has been arrested
"Police found Rivers drenched in blood and running from the doorway of the house. He was in possession of knives, ammunition, and metal knuckles. The house was on fire. Inside the house, the police found two women whose bodies were riddled with bullets and stab wounds. They also found a young man laid out in front of the house who had been shot to death. Rivers has been charged with numerous serious and violent offenses, including murder and arson.
The victims: Patricia Wright and Charlotte Reed, a married lesbian couple, and Toto Diambu (known as Benny Diambu-Wright), their 19-year-old son."
My heart goes out to poor, poor Dana Rivers, and to TRA shills everywhere if I'm honest.
"I can explain everything."
Yes, he attempted to set the house on fire to cover his crimes.
Erasure of the record. Online equivalent is let's just delete a few Tweets and no one will know anyone defended that. Never happened. No link to delusional mental health issues, jealousy of the sex your obsessional focus gloms onto or what you perceive you 'identify' with, a disconnect with reality, extreme violence, gun obsession, revenge, murder or sexual assault. Oh no no no. Move along now. Nooootthing to see here. What does escalation mean again?
What's that got to do with adhering to basic journalistic practices?
Everything. It could have been mentioned with appropriate caveats. In the same way as you might report, "Although Mr Stalin has not been brought to trial, 2-3 million are thought to have died during the Great Terror..." a decent journalist could have easily assembled a comprehensive assessment of the alleged circumstances of this man's arrest.
If he'd had the will to.
First, this is not a journalistic website. When the actual journals don't adhere to basic journalistic practices, why would a Substack account criticizing gender ideology have to? Do you have high standards for nonjournalists and no standards for actual journalists? As far as I know, this is either not being covered or only covered minimally by U.S. media.
Rivers IS accused in Alameda County Superior Court of murder and arson. He IS STANDING trial on those charges, right now, even though the trial date has not been set yet.
But, you can put out a documentary stating the facts at the scene of the crime as reported by the police.* And, as this case has taken so long to come to trial, thereby denying the victims and their loved ones justice and closure, a documentary looking into the crime AND the reasons this case has yet to be tried seems like a mighty fine idea to me.
*According to the police: Just after midnight on November 11, 2016, police received reports about gunshots being fired at a home on Dunbar Drive, in Oakland, California. When they responded, they found Rivers drenched in blood and running from the doorway of the house. He was in possession of knives, ammunition, and metal knuckles. The house was on fire. Inside the house, the police found two women whose bodies were riddled with bullets and stab wounds. They also found a young man laid out in front of the house who had been shot to death. Rivers has been charged with numerous serious and violent offenses, including murder and arson.
Out of interest, when he asked you, did he give an indication of where he thought you might fit into the narrative? Do you still think it was a bad-faith invitation?
Bad faith isn’t quite the right word. He simply could not address any of the issues. It was like fighting jelly. He has that full on genderist/Scientologist thousand yard stare.
His journalism is steeped in story telling. The butterfly effect was enjoyable. But unbelievably reductive. And misleading. You’d come away thinking porn was all good natured and about people making custom videos for stamp collectors.
And now he’s done the same with the ‘culture wars’ like a low rent Adam Curtis he finds a story and then staples it to a constructed cultural narrative whether it’s true or not.
It would be like telling the story of the suffragettes from the point of view of the jockey on the horse that killed Emily Davison. Yes it’s a thing that happened in that story. And the jockey was involved. But its use as a lens, whilst compelling, is reductive and misleading.
I think you could construe his approach as bad faith. If we take his remonstration of Alice Moore over the Roger McGough poem…that wasn’t okay what he did. And was definitely an act of bad faith. What’s to say he wouldn’t have tried the same with you? Yes he’s a jelly - until he thinks he’s got you - and then he’s a lot more prickly and clever.
I didn't like him at the beginning but got used to his oblique way of connecting things and showing you how fallible extreme people can be. He doesn't poke the nest without full protective gear on. Quite common for all but the most talented of bee keepers. I haven't listened to it yet btw, but have the rest. Again, I'm not Jon Ronson.
Oh, I just listened last night. I despise him.
Noooooooooooooo! Jon Non Jovi Never Again Simp Pimple Ron-no son of mine-son. i really did have higher hopes for him.