Very well said. Thank you. However, I shall never “feel bad” about not wishing to claim my right to speak honestly and accurately. A woman is an adult human female. Male bodies don't get pregnant.
We don’t call men “ejaculators”, so why should anyone in their right mind think it’s ok to call women “bleeders”. It’s dehumanizing and I’m afraid that we have thousands of years of history where women have been dehumanized. The Catholic church debated for years whether women had souls, so enough with being polite about our erasure from the English language.
Also, many of the alternative terms for women, such as bleeders, exclude whole groups of women. Young and old females don't bleed. It's no good calling us uterus havers either - some people have had hysterectomies. There is no one collective term that includes all females except "woman". It's as silly as saying some birds feel like a mammal and then we are reduced to using their language of cis-mammals or cis-birds. I will never use cis. It is not what I believe.
Do you have a reference for the RC Church debating whether women had souls? I don't doubt you at all, just that I've often heard it said and would like proof of it.
OK, circling back on your question. For the record, I read in a book about 20 years ago that the Catholic Church in a Synod back in the 500s poised the question - do women have souls - and it stuck in my craw, so to speak. When I went to research it, there was little evidence online (as the references were old and not easy to acquire). I'll put some links, below, but from the reading that I did yesterday, two things:
1) when searching online, one gets inundated with pro-Catholic articles and a lot of outright debunking (by the Catholic Church and their representatives) of the Synod in 584 or 585 AD where it was claimed this discussion took place.
2) a "variation" on a theme wherein a Synod asked - point-blank - if women could be considered "human".
To the second point, it seems that the question was more of a language-based question, as the word used in the bible for "human" was "man" (just like, sometimes, mankind represents men & women, and when convenient, it doesn't).
In short, I can't make a flat-out claim that the church questioned whether women had souls, so thanks for asking me to look it up. I will say, though, that given that women had to cover their heads in shame in church (with hats and lace and so on - hence the tradition of Sunday hats) well into the 1970s, and that the Catholic Church treated unwed mothers so horrifically and ALSO promoted the dichotomy of whore and virgin for women's sexuality -- making up a story that the fine woman Mary Magdalene was nothing but a prostitute and only recently recanting (see link, below) -- I can certainly see a whole bunch of men huddled together wondering what to make of women and how to keep them in their place. https://uscatholic.org/articles/201603/who-framed-mary-magdalene/ While most men I know are far from that kind of person, I still see a whole bunch of men (many in dresses these days) doing just the same, which is why I shall never apologize for demanding that my sex-based rights be maintained and I am honoured as a woman, not a bleeder or uterus-haver or birthing person.
To those who have written saying they're Catholic and have never heard of the Synod questioning women's humanity, I say: Not surprised. Almost all of my Catholic friends had never known that priests HAD BEEN PERMITTED TO MARRY until the Catholic Church under Pope Gregory VII insisted otherwise, and not for the most noble of reasons.
I've heard of it generally in that it's been attributed to the General Synod of the church of England and also, I think, the House of Commons. Could be mythical?
Thanks. Saw a news item s while ago in which a young CofE clergyman claimed that JESUS must've been transgender because he washed the feet of the Apostles ,which would've been a woman's job ,so even Jesus isn't spared from this affront to the truth !! Crazy 😩🤮😭
May 8, 2022·edited May 8, 2022Liked by Eliza Mondegreen
Brilliant explanation. I find Eliza’s forbearance with this friend quite amazing. And so true about that circle of silence. It’s happened in my book group just because one person said a friend of her’s daughter is ‘Non binary’. It now seems out of bounds to discuss and I feel that if I raise the issue again I will be seen as the one who is being hateful/ transphobic etc.
It's awful that someone feels able to make that statement, maybe as if it's trendy and exciting? Was it said to be provocative or to stimulate a conversation..to challenge? Why should we have to listen to that and not feel able to make a comment or just say I think that is ridiculous or dangerous? When do we, as women, start to protest against these damaging lies...esp when a lovely young girl is being denied the chance to fully understand the miracle of being a woman. I would love to go into schools and talk to these beautiful new budding females about the agony and exctasy of womanhood and be proud of their bodies!! So sad..it hurts. We must, simply say, NO!!
This is so true and I find it very hard to shake off the conditioning that means I want to comply, but if we can't use the word 'women' then we are complicit in our own erasure
Well written and said. I'd argue that trans person is not your friend. Friends allow each other differing opinions and don't attempt to impose their beliefs on each other. I'm sick of being dictated to by misogynists and I would have wanted to say what you did to your 'friend', albeit far less eloquently I'm sure!
Excellent comment. I don't even expect anyone to share my opinions (some of which are actual facts, such as there are two sexes), but it's very tiresome when people expect you to agree with them no matter what they say.
You have been very considerate of your friend. But why should you be the one to change? Many Trans Women are forever making demands, without showing any concern for the (real) Women they claim are their Sisters. I first heard of this issue, when I read JK Rowlings' perfectly reasonable comments- then saw the tone-deaf replies. Leaving aside the appalling vicious threats- I couldn't believe that even the less unleasant TRAs, made no attempt to connect with Women. I suppose I expected some humility, like new people asking to join a club, hoping to be accepted, showing a good attitude... But no, it seems to be mainly aggressive entitlement and attempted bullying... Plus attempted guilt-tripping from the quieter ones.
Can we please stop using the term "tone-deaf" to mean people who don't listen. I am deaf and don't have a choice whether or not to listen to others. We have stopped using other disabilities in a derogatory way, it is time to stop using the word "deaf" in this manner.
Mandy- I want to apologise. I am sorry- I will never use that expression again. I used it because it seems a current phrase online- but I had not stopped to think what it really means. Thank you for pointing out, what should have been obvious to me.
Thank you. And please pass it down the line. I used to work for a deaf organisation and the last thing I did before the organisation closed was to write a briefing to all politicians and the press asking them to think before using such phrases. Hopefully over time, society will stop using these phrases.
All the nonsense should have been nipped in the bud. We wouldn't be in this pickle if we had done that. All those people being 'kind'... Now it's much more difficult to get rid of. We don't give credence to, say, creationism, which is just as preposterous. We don't let creationists dictate what we say, what we think. We don't give them airtime. We dismiss them. We should have done the same with the proponents of genderism. We should have laughed them out of court.
Very well put. While I do wish to distress any individuals nor go out of my way to be unpleasant I will never acquiesce to compelled speech as long as I have breath in my body
You can never depend upon that nor base your behavior on a hope. This is precisely why women stay with men who abuse them, the hope that someday they will turn into decent human beings.
We're the ones who are "brave and stunning" who speak the truth and voice our beliefs in the face of people who say" can't you just be kind...??." Language is important. We must fight to preserve it as otherwise it will end in our erasure as adult human females
I'm a woman. Only women can get pregnant, give birth, or need abortions. I'm sick to death of Transworld's Tyranny. Many of them have ASD and there are many folks with ASD who loathe being told 'NO', and get very angry if people don't do as they say. I don't. I won't. I don't care about the meltdowns and the rages...seen too many of them in my life...and not only do have ASD in my family, but I also live very close to a care home for those with severe ASD. I see the meltdowns, the rage, see the way the female carers are picked out by male patients, to be the ones to scream abuse to. I'm truly past caring about upsetting folks now, because this cult is SO DANGEROUS to women and girls, to young boys too, that there is no time to worry about upsetting those who have tantrums if they can't get their own way. I also don't care if I lose friends either, SO URGENT is this to break apart. I abhor the terms being used for women, being pushed by those I consider to be utter nitwits, such as Freddy The Seahorse, who has driven a lot of this. If you HATE being reminded that you ARE a woman, tough. You are, get over it. It does not give you the right to change the language of women at all. I've never heard of anything so misogynistic, so spiteful, so sociopathic and so vindictive. Call themselves whatever they so choose, but that's it, I won't ever use stupid words to appease any of them. I sound hard, but Transworld has made me thus, because it is spitting on women every single day...uncaring of us, uncaring of the children, wanting children to be lied to....and they've terrified people into silence. THAT is Dictatorship/Tyranny, and I don't do either of those, so, they'll have to go sit in their 'safe spaces' and learn to adapt to the majority, just as I did being left-handed, having to learn to read/write back to front....Nowt worse than Spoiled Brats who demand ALL must obey them, then throw wobblies when we dont.
I think an overriding concern on this is the idea of compelled speech.
Regardless of the ideology underpinning this (which I abhor btw) it’s never a good look for any argument when compelled speech is part of its makeup. Pronouns fall under the same charge.
That alone should be the stock answer to these requests.
"I don’t buy into the idea that there’s a right or a wrong way to be female that makes someone not a woman." Exactly. How dare a small, vocal minority group enforce a whole belief system, on 51% of humanity based on extreme and quite frankly insulting "ideals" of what a woman is. Like many here, I've got to the end of my rapidly fraying rope and I can tolerate this BS no longer. I am angry to my very core. I have been a feminist objecting to being defined by a sterotype my whole life and now this. I have a TRA in the family. When we have family meals I have to break bread with them and make nice. Today I posited this to my partner: "Why can't I go to the meal wearing a Woman = Adult human female t-shirt? The immediate answer was of course that I would upset the TRA in the family and make it uncomfortable for everyone else there. I replied that a) the only person who should feel uncomfortable is the TRA; b) no-one seems to care a jot that I am deeply uncomfortable and c) they are allowed to wear their trans uniform of partially shave head, dyed hair and trans flag watch strap. Why is it encumbent on me to preserve their feelings when no-one is caring of mine? I do not expect anyone to be responisble for my feelings of course, but that's the difference - these TRAs expect everyone to be responsible for all their 'feels' and expect to feel nothing but positive feelings. Sorry folks, life isn't like that and it's madness that we all pander to them. Next meal, I will be wearing a green, purple and white brooch or similar.
Very well said. Thank you. However, I shall never “feel bad” about not wishing to claim my right to speak honestly and accurately. A woman is an adult human female. Male bodies don't get pregnant.
We don’t call men “ejaculators”, so why should anyone in their right mind think it’s ok to call women “bleeders”. It’s dehumanizing and I’m afraid that we have thousands of years of history where women have been dehumanized. The Catholic church debated for years whether women had souls, so enough with being polite about our erasure from the English language.
Also, many of the alternative terms for women, such as bleeders, exclude whole groups of women. Young and old females don't bleed. It's no good calling us uterus havers either - some people have had hysterectomies. There is no one collective term that includes all females except "woman". It's as silly as saying some birds feel like a mammal and then we are reduced to using their language of cis-mammals or cis-birds. I will never use cis. It is not what I believe.
Do you have a reference for the RC Church debating whether women had souls? I don't doubt you at all, just that I've often heard it said and would like proof of it.
Will circle back when I’m near a computer. Read it in a book 20 years ago and will find tge correct reference.
Thanks
OK, circling back on your question. For the record, I read in a book about 20 years ago that the Catholic Church in a Synod back in the 500s poised the question - do women have souls - and it stuck in my craw, so to speak. When I went to research it, there was little evidence online (as the references were old and not easy to acquire). I'll put some links, below, but from the reading that I did yesterday, two things:
1) when searching online, one gets inundated with pro-Catholic articles and a lot of outright debunking (by the Catholic Church and their representatives) of the Synod in 584 or 585 AD where it was claimed this discussion took place.
2) a "variation" on a theme wherein a Synod asked - point-blank - if women could be considered "human".
To this first point, I'll link to a man who references his evidence that the Catholic Church DID ask whether women had souls. https://groups.google.com/g/net.women/c/PtEmp8kJC4A?pli=1
To the second point, it seems that the question was more of a language-based question, as the word used in the bible for "human" was "man" (just like, sometimes, mankind represents men & women, and when convenient, it doesn't).
In short, I can't make a flat-out claim that the church questioned whether women had souls, so thanks for asking me to look it up. I will say, though, that given that women had to cover their heads in shame in church (with hats and lace and so on - hence the tradition of Sunday hats) well into the 1970s, and that the Catholic Church treated unwed mothers so horrifically and ALSO promoted the dichotomy of whore and virgin for women's sexuality -- making up a story that the fine woman Mary Magdalene was nothing but a prostitute and only recently recanting (see link, below) -- I can certainly see a whole bunch of men huddled together wondering what to make of women and how to keep them in their place. https://uscatholic.org/articles/201603/who-framed-mary-magdalene/ While most men I know are far from that kind of person, I still see a whole bunch of men (many in dresses these days) doing just the same, which is why I shall never apologize for demanding that my sex-based rights be maintained and I am honoured as a woman, not a bleeder or uterus-haver or birthing person.
To those who have written saying they're Catholic and have never heard of the Synod questioning women's humanity, I say: Not surprised. Almost all of my Catholic friends had never known that priests HAD BEEN PERMITTED TO MARRY until the Catholic Church under Pope Gregory VII insisted otherwise, and not for the most noble of reasons.
https://historynewsnetwork.org/article/696
Have a great day and thanks for asking!
I:m a practicing Catholic and have been all my life (I'm 75) and I've never heard of this !!
I've heard of it generally in that it's been attributed to the General Synod of the church of England and also, I think, the House of Commons. Could be mythical?
Thanks. Saw a news item s while ago in which a young CofE clergyman claimed that JESUS must've been transgender because he washed the feet of the Apostles ,which would've been a woman's job ,so even Jesus isn't spared from this affront to the truth !! Crazy 😩🤮😭
Describes perfectly the pressure gender ideology is putting on women as they try to make us submit
Brilliant explanation. I find Eliza’s forbearance with this friend quite amazing. And so true about that circle of silence. It’s happened in my book group just because one person said a friend of her’s daughter is ‘Non binary’. It now seems out of bounds to discuss and I feel that if I raise the issue again I will be seen as the one who is being hateful/ transphobic etc.
It's awful that someone feels able to make that statement, maybe as if it's trendy and exciting? Was it said to be provocative or to stimulate a conversation..to challenge? Why should we have to listen to that and not feel able to make a comment or just say I think that is ridiculous or dangerous? When do we, as women, start to protest against these damaging lies...esp when a lovely young girl is being denied the chance to fully understand the miracle of being a woman. I would love to go into schools and talk to these beautiful new budding females about the agony and exctasy of womanhood and be proud of their bodies!! So sad..it hurts. We must, simply say, NO!!
This is so true and I find it very hard to shake off the conditioning that means I want to comply, but if we can't use the word 'women' then we are complicit in our own erasure
Well written and said. I'd argue that trans person is not your friend. Friends allow each other differing opinions and don't attempt to impose their beliefs on each other. I'm sick of being dictated to by misogynists and I would have wanted to say what you did to your 'friend', albeit far less eloquently I'm sure!
Excellent comment. I don't even expect anyone to share my opinions (some of which are actual facts, such as there are two sexes), but it's very tiresome when people expect you to agree with them no matter what they say.
You have been very considerate of your friend. But why should you be the one to change? Many Trans Women are forever making demands, without showing any concern for the (real) Women they claim are their Sisters. I first heard of this issue, when I read JK Rowlings' perfectly reasonable comments- then saw the tone-deaf replies. Leaving aside the appalling vicious threats- I couldn't believe that even the less unleasant TRAs, made no attempt to connect with Women. I suppose I expected some humility, like new people asking to join a club, hoping to be accepted, showing a good attitude... But no, it seems to be mainly aggressive entitlement and attempted bullying... Plus attempted guilt-tripping from the quieter ones.
Can we please stop using the term "tone-deaf" to mean people who don't listen. I am deaf and don't have a choice whether or not to listen to others. We have stopped using other disabilities in a derogatory way, it is time to stop using the word "deaf" in this manner.
Mandy- I want to apologise. I am sorry- I will never use that expression again. I used it because it seems a current phrase online- but I had not stopped to think what it really means. Thank you for pointing out, what should have been obvious to me.
Thank you. And please pass it down the line. I used to work for a deaf organisation and the last thing I did before the organisation closed was to write a briefing to all politicians and the press asking them to think before using such phrases. Hopefully over time, society will stop using these phrases.
'Who puts a word over a friend?' But that is exactly what her friend is doing to her.
Yes we really do and we said NO already. Sick of being polite about it.
All the nonsense should have been nipped in the bud. We wouldn't be in this pickle if we had done that. All those people being 'kind'... Now it's much more difficult to get rid of. We don't give credence to, say, creationism, which is just as preposterous. We don't let creationists dictate what we say, what we think. We don't give them airtime. We dismiss them. We should have done the same with the proponents of genderism. We should have laughed them out of court.
Very well put. While I do wish to distress any individuals nor go out of my way to be unpleasant I will never acquiesce to compelled speech as long as I have breath in my body
do NOT wish to distress any individuals. None of us does
In the end, what it comes down to: that person isn’t your friend.
I think what it comes down to is, it's hard to maintain a friendship with someone in a cult. But if you want them to leave someday...
You can never depend upon that nor base your behavior on a hope. This is precisely why women stay with men who abuse them, the hope that someday they will turn into decent human beings.
We're the ones who are "brave and stunning" who speak the truth and voice our beliefs in the face of people who say" can't you just be kind...??." Language is important. We must fight to preserve it as otherwise it will end in our erasure as adult human females
It's narcissistic, emotional blackmail.
I'm a woman. Only women can get pregnant, give birth, or need abortions. I'm sick to death of Transworld's Tyranny. Many of them have ASD and there are many folks with ASD who loathe being told 'NO', and get very angry if people don't do as they say. I don't. I won't. I don't care about the meltdowns and the rages...seen too many of them in my life...and not only do have ASD in my family, but I also live very close to a care home for those with severe ASD. I see the meltdowns, the rage, see the way the female carers are picked out by male patients, to be the ones to scream abuse to. I'm truly past caring about upsetting folks now, because this cult is SO DANGEROUS to women and girls, to young boys too, that there is no time to worry about upsetting those who have tantrums if they can't get their own way. I also don't care if I lose friends either, SO URGENT is this to break apart. I abhor the terms being used for women, being pushed by those I consider to be utter nitwits, such as Freddy The Seahorse, who has driven a lot of this. If you HATE being reminded that you ARE a woman, tough. You are, get over it. It does not give you the right to change the language of women at all. I've never heard of anything so misogynistic, so spiteful, so sociopathic and so vindictive. Call themselves whatever they so choose, but that's it, I won't ever use stupid words to appease any of them. I sound hard, but Transworld has made me thus, because it is spitting on women every single day...uncaring of us, uncaring of the children, wanting children to be lied to....and they've terrified people into silence. THAT is Dictatorship/Tyranny, and I don't do either of those, so, they'll have to go sit in their 'safe spaces' and learn to adapt to the majority, just as I did being left-handed, having to learn to read/write back to front....Nowt worse than Spoiled Brats who demand ALL must obey them, then throw wobblies when we dont.
I think an overriding concern on this is the idea of compelled speech.
Regardless of the ideology underpinning this (which I abhor btw) it’s never a good look for any argument when compelled speech is part of its makeup. Pronouns fall under the same charge.
That alone should be the stock answer to these requests.
"I don’t buy into the idea that there’s a right or a wrong way to be female that makes someone not a woman." Exactly. How dare a small, vocal minority group enforce a whole belief system, on 51% of humanity based on extreme and quite frankly insulting "ideals" of what a woman is. Like many here, I've got to the end of my rapidly fraying rope and I can tolerate this BS no longer. I am angry to my very core. I have been a feminist objecting to being defined by a sterotype my whole life and now this. I have a TRA in the family. When we have family meals I have to break bread with them and make nice. Today I posited this to my partner: "Why can't I go to the meal wearing a Woman = Adult human female t-shirt? The immediate answer was of course that I would upset the TRA in the family and make it uncomfortable for everyone else there. I replied that a) the only person who should feel uncomfortable is the TRA; b) no-one seems to care a jot that I am deeply uncomfortable and c) they are allowed to wear their trans uniform of partially shave head, dyed hair and trans flag watch strap. Why is it encumbent on me to preserve their feelings when no-one is caring of mine? I do not expect anyone to be responisble for my feelings of course, but that's the difference - these TRAs expect everyone to be responsible for all their 'feels' and expect to feel nothing but positive feelings. Sorry folks, life isn't like that and it's madness that we all pander to them. Next meal, I will be wearing a green, purple and white brooch or similar.
Totally agree 👍👍👍