John Nicolson's very bad morning

MG - calls JN to the witness chair. Good morning, points out the bundles on the desk, requests him to take out Bundle 1, turn to tab 23. Find witness statement
JN - (does so)
JN - confirms his signature, recognises statement. Happy to adopt as evidence without change.

KM - calls attention to iPad and annotated documents.
J - asks JN to put materials to one side.
JN - MP, member of SNP
KM - proposed reforms of GRA in Scotland

KM - contents of bill GRA reform, applies to Scotland only
JN - yes
KM - proposes to relax process of obtaining a GRC
JN - yes
KM - outlining the acquisition of a GRC, changes a persons sex for all purposes
JN - confirms
KM - current conditions; gender dysphoria,

KM - you've read the original act so that you could comment on proposed changes?
JN - I have
KM - back to conditions, gender dysphoria, living in acquired gender
JN - they have been legally accessing services in their acquired gender under the law

KM - continues outlining requirements.
J - deals with someone on the link who has their camera on.
KM - continues with requirements.
JN - makes affirmative noises.
KM - outlining the panel, fairly stringent requirements
Now going on to proposed reforms.

KM - may apply for a GRC if 16,
JN - you can vote in Scotland at 16 that is the motivation
The use of the word child is 'emotive' and that person has adult responsibilities.
KM - Legally 'child'
JN - You would agree that a child is not allowed to vote
KM - I'm not here to

answer your questions.
JN - repeats point. Then can we agree 'young adult'.
KM - I will say child.
JN - i will say young adult.
KM - outlining proposed changes and communication requirement and reflection period of 3 months
JN - yes I believe that is correct

KM - brief discussion of interim vs full GRC (to do with persons who are married)
KM - prepare a declaration, born in Scotland, lived in your acquired gender for 3 months, intend to live in acquired gender. That is all. That is a fundamental change is it not?

JN - the objective is to make it easier and less intrusive.
KM - and highly controversial
JN - highly controversial to those who oppose it. The Tribunal will know that it is similar to those enacted in other jurisdictions. Mentions ALBA, with low vote totals etc.

(Struggling to keep up with JN responses to KM questions)
JN - explains his role on parliament committee, and overwhelming support for LGBTQ persons.
KM - asks JN to focus on questions and answer them, interrupting JN to do so.
KM - (back to question)

KM - asking the question again, 'it is a model that is usually called self id or self declaration'
JN - yes
KM - it sets the bar lower for changing sex
JN - lower is an emotive word. Less intrusive is better.
KM - the concern is that it will erode sex based rights.

JN - I've read on Twitter that's their opinion.
KM - explains the EA and ability to exclude those with a GRC, we won't agree on the law
JN - agrees
KM - when a person does not have a GRC they can be excluded from a single sex service with a lower bar. Do you understand that?

JN - I understand that those without a GRC can be excluded.
KM - so getting a GRC is an important thing.
JN - It is such an important thing for someone who is born into the wrong body, that's why it is such an important progressive piece of legislation.

KM - perhaps I will have to take you to what MM and the DoE say about the wrong body narrative.
JN - what do you mean narrative. It is their lived experienced.
KM - do you understand the view of LGBA is that sex matters and that this reform will undermine sex based rights.

JN - I know that LGBA has expressed extreme views and tweeted abuse at me, calling me a pedophile and a rapist enabler.
KM - I do not believe there is one piece of evidence before the tribunal that supports that.
JN - of course they have, and it is a minority view.

KM - you understand that individuals are entitled to campaign and comment on matters in the public domain.
JN - refers to section 28 period, abuse in public, free speech.
KM - so I take it you agree that members of the public and civil society are allowed to comment.

KM - goes to 'press pause' campaign. And JN witness statement. Aggressive activism of LGBA. Please look at 'press pause' materials. Did you look at this document before making your witness statement?
JN - yes I did.
KM - you know that this is a response to a consultation

that was designed to elicit comment. Please listen to the question and respond.
JN - refers to complete package of LGBA.
J - instructs JN to listen to and respond to the questions. Please look at the specific document as requested by KM.
MG - please allow him to answer

in his own way.
KM - referring again to 'press pause' document. Explains response to consultation and simple guide to help others respond. Suggests rejecting bill to be able to discuss the matter completely.
JN - agrees.
KM - perfectly reasonable?
JN - no I disagree.

KM - sorry, I meant, it is reasonable for them to express this view.
JN - yes, but some of things they express in this document are expressly false. Especially 'danger to children'.
KM - I will come on to that. 'Believe in respectful polite debate'. Nothing problematic there?

JN - except its a very coy statement and it runs counter to how they are campaigning.
KM - are you saying there are hidden messages?
JN - they don't want their supporters submissions to be rejected because they are aggressive
KM - next page sets out current position.

JN - implies that people are whimsical in their decision to change their gender,
KM - says it will be much easier and become automatic
JN - you say easier but it is incredibly traumatic to change your gender.
KM - and access risk, with a GRC you can access spaces.

JN - suggests that trans people are predators who will change their gender to access women's spaces. No one checks anyone gender before accessing women's services such as toilets.
KM - you use as your example a man access a woman's service.
JN - most sexual abuse and violence

KM - attempting to move on.
JN - citing that each paragraph is problematic. Each paragraph is problematic.
KM - lets look at danger to children. The reason that LGBA is concerned is that many more children are identifying as trans, and easy to find themselves on a pathway

KM - you understand there are so many more children identifying as trans. You understand that concern?
JN - more children identifying as gay, more as trans, it's easier to talk about it now.
KM - do you understand that it's reasonable for them to be concerned about that?

JN - refers to homophobic statements and abuse he receives and there are always bad faith actors.
KM - discussing Cass Review.
JN - it seems dramatic because it's expressed as a percentage but its not that big in number.
KM - is it reasonable to want to explore this societal

phenomena?
JN - I know that LGBA says this.
KM - quotes 30% of boys identify as heterosexual, and 25% of girls heterosexual presenting to GIDS. Attracted to members of the same sex. Do you understand.
JN - I know what a lesbian is.
KM - I take nothing for granted.

JN - I'm a gay man. I know this.
KM - can you see that this is a proper matter for the LGBA to be concerned with?
JN - I thought they are a charity, we have not yet discussed any charitable activity
KM - are you agreeing with me or not?

JN - they say they are concerned with this.
KM - do you agree that they have expressed their views in moderate non-aggressive terms?
JN - it is coyly expressed, I think it is passive aggressive and implies that trans people are predatory.

KM - do you agree that sex based rights are at risk?
JN - and I'm going to completely disagree.
KM - a male that gets a GRC, and is a heterosexual, does that make that person a lesbian?

JN - I just do not understand this obsession with people's genitalia, LGBA appears to think about nothing else from the moment they get up in the morning until they go to bed at night.
KM - it will destroy same sex rights if sex becomes something you simply declare.

JN - you are a lesbian because you declare yourself one. No one has to inspect you and confirm you are a lesbian. All the of the lesbians in my committee agree, this will not diminish them.
KM - referring to the section on 'children should be happy in their own bodies'.

JN - interrupts.
KM - I have not asked you a question.
(back and forth)
KM - you are objecting to the use of the term of epidemic?
JN - it is a negative thing, implies that it is terrible and bad.
KM - a 4000% increase in referrals to a health service

is justifiably called an epidemic.
JN - I disagree, it's a terribly negative connotation.
KM - referring to advertisement evidencing 'aggression' around GRC reform. Describes proposed changes, are these accurate.
JN - We've gone round the houses on this.

JN - Rape Crisis Scotland, experts in this area, support this. Goes on.
KM - do you accept that changes in legislation should be debated and discussed in the public domain.
JN - 'this will allow predatory men', straight out of the Section 28 playbook, debate needs to be

respectful, truthful and not hurtful.
KM - you accept that this is discussing men, all men, not gay men.
JN - men don't need a GRC to access women's spaces and they do it now. Nobody in my experience in my experience in goes to M&S and is asked to prove their gender.

KM - you understand why there are women only spaces?
JN - I understand that lots of women do not want to be naked in front of men in public spaces.
KM - do you respect that ?
JN - I have always and will always respect that.
KM - do you understand that women are concerned

that predatory men will use a GRC in order to access women's spaces?
JN - Predatory men is scare mongering and no evidence from other jurisdictions that this is happening, there is no 'epidemic'.
KM - do you respect the views of women who worry about this?
JN - I always

respect minority views.
KM - do you respect their concerns?
JN - yes.
KM - this advertisement is not aggressive and uses measured terms.
JN - it dogwhistles aggression towards trans people and LGBA are whipping up fear and trepidation. Scaremongering, deeply offensive.

JN - they are linking predators to transpeople, that is prejudicial.
KM - they are linking men to predators.
JN - prejudicial to transpeople.
KM - looking at these documents to see if we see anything aggressive. Making observations about sport.

hospitals, GIDS and the impact of maligning lesbians who are concerned about this as transphobic. KM you profoundly disagree with LGBA and there is nothing problematic about that.
JN - full of false statements, untruths, scaremongering, trans people do not simply grow up to be

gay.
KM - Have you read the Cass Review?
JN - I have read a short summary.
KM - asking for a break.
JN - I have other duties, we are 90 minutes in and we haven't yet discussed their charitable duties.
KM - if the witness would answer the question we could finish more quickly

Judge - we will take a short break.
Court rises, back in approximately 15 minutes.

KM - I have been able to edit my x-exam. I would like to take you to one last point on the way in which the bill is proceeding. A letter from chair of EHRC to Shona Robinson. Set out their position on proposed reforms.
Some have expressed concerns on changing criteria.

Extends from smaller group to wider group. Do you see that the concerns of LGBA are shared by others?
JN - they are shared by a few, and many of those who are anti-gay have enthusiastically adopted the position of LGBA.
KM - are you accusing the EHRC and the others who are

concerned with all being homophobic?
JN - the EHRC under the new regime is more controversial.
KM - quoting from letter, EHRC current framework provides sufficient protection to all
JN - these are Baroness Faulkner's views. I understand that her predecessor would disagree.

KM - you understand that she is writing on behalf of the board, not her personal views.
JN - the previous board would have had a different view.
KM - referring to assertion of extensive political campaigning of LGBA. Is that the right place for them to go?
JN - yes, but they

should be doing some charitable work as well. They are only doing lobbying. I have yet to see an example of their charitable works.
KM - we will hear about that when they give their evidence so you don't need to worry about that. Now reviewing the correspondence. You refer to

their lobbying - are these appropriate avenues to be lobbying.
JN - yes, but they need to be doing some charitable people. Kemi Badenoch in particular was not an appropriate person to be holding the Equality brief, given her gay rights voting record.

KM - but they are the appropriate offices and departments to be lobbying,
JN - yes.
KM - going on to ask about JN's tweets and evidence that LGBA attacks and denigrates others on social media. Tweet sent by JN on 15 April, linking a documentary, commending it

JN - yes a constituent
KM - goes on to a response from JN that refers to LGBA as sinister.
JN - on that night I got a deluge of abuse from supporters of LGBA and many DMs.
KM - go back to the question, that was the first engagement with LGBA.

JN - they whip up their supporters and hide behind them, it's no conspiracy, you can search Twitter and find it.
KM - you describe a group you have had no engagement with at all as 'sinister', at 1 am.
JN - perfectly seemly to tweet this. The stuff that LGBA then tweets

abuse at me. One of their directors has continued obsessively tweeting about me. I have never commented on an individual at LGBA. They impersonated a member of parliament.
KM - That is all I have.
J - any questions from IS.

IS - you said that 20% of LGBA supporters are lesbians.
What is your evidence of that.
JN - referring to previous case where Stonewall won, saying that evidence showed only 20% of members are lesbians, have been thrown off two largest fund raising platforms, many off shore followers, tiny accounts.
IS - goes back to campaign documents. Which did you think were worse?
JN - press pause was obviously seen by LGBA as too benign. So they went on to 'green light to predators' to get people to read the article.

The idea that the FM of Scotland a life long feminist with a gender balanced cabinet would do anything to harm women and children is laughable.
IS - anything other comments?
JN - designed to elicit fear, scare women and children, straight from the Clause 28 playbook.

IS - no further questions.