Jenni Swayne's magnificent police interview

Feminist campaigner and Father Ted fan, Jenni Swayne meets the police.

You may remember the story of Jenni Swayne, a disabled woman arrested and held for ten hours for having the temerity to place stickers supporting women’s rights around Newport, Wales. She just sent me her interview with Welsh police and there’s a LOT to enjoy in here. I’m particularly proud to see Father Jack make an appearance!

For anyone confused about what it has to do with the story, the police found a pathetically small amount of cannabis when they searched Jenni’s home which is what is referenced at the begininning. There are some mistakes in transcription which I have corrected.

I = Police interviewer.

R= Respondent (Jenny)

DB: Solicitor.

I: This interview is being both audio and visually recorded and may be given in evidence if your case is brought to trial. At the conclusion of this interview you’ll be supplied with a form explaining what will happen to the DVDs and how you gain access to them. We are in interview room 2 at Newport Central Police Station. The time now is 01:52 in the morning and the date is 24 January 2022. I am REDACTED, I am interviewing, please state your full name and date of birth, please?

R: Sorry?

I: Could you please state your full name and date of birth for me?

R: It’s Jennifer Anne Swain (gives date of birth).

I: Also present are:

DB: REDACTED, solicitor.

I: I must caution you, you do not have to say anything but it may harm your defence if you don’t mention when questioned something which you later rely on in court, anything you do say may be given in evidence. First part of the caution is quite simple, you have the right to remain silent or refuse to answer any of my questions. The second part dictates that if you exercise your right to silence or alternatively if you change any of your answers in a later court trial and you then specifically rely on those changed answers in your defence the court may be less willing to believe you. The last part is also very simple, the interview is being audio and visually recorded so the content of the interview will be played in court at any subsequent trial if it gets to that. Do you understand all that?

R: Yes.

I: Can you try to explain to me what your understanding of the caution is, of what I’ve just said to you?

R: Basically I can say something, or not.

I: Yeah, I can’t force you to answer questions, you’ve got a right to remain silent. The other thing is if you change any of your answers later down the line they may be less willing to believe you, basically. If you do say something and you change your answers.

R: I don’t lie.

I: That’s okay. Is there any reason why you should not be interviewed at this time?

R: No.

I: Have you taken any drugs or alcohol recently?

R: No.

I: Do you take any prescribed medication (inaudible 0:02:06)?

R: Yeah.

I: Are you at the point where... are you able to be interviewed now?

R: Yeah.

I: So you’re not in need of that medication?

R: No.

I: You have the right to free and independent legal advice and you are represented by DB. Have you had enough time to consult with your solicitor before we start the interview?

R: Yes, he was very good.

I: It is an ongoing right if at any time during the interview you want to speak to your solicitors in private, we can stop the interview for that consultation to take place. Do you understand that?

R: Okay.

I: If you’re confused by anything just let me know, we’ll pause the interview, all right?

DB: Are you going to be the IOC for this?

I: No, I don’t think so.

DB: Do you know who?

I: It will either be PC Williams or PC Jackson.

DB: Do you know their collar numbers?

I: One’s 1864 and the other is 1534 I think but I’m not 100%. I’ll send you an email afterwards.

DB: Thank you very much.

I: (Inaudible 0:03:01) prior to this interview you were provided with disclosure from myself?

DB: Yes, I can confirm I’ve received the official written disclosure, I’ve had sufficient time to consult with my client, Ms Swain’s fully aware of my role but just a reminder, if you need to speak to me at any time, it’s an ongoing right so you can have further legal advice at any time. We can stop the interview, okay?

R: Okay.

DB: Also here to protect your legal interests as well. I’m unaware right now why Ms Swain can’t be interviewed.

I: The reason for the interview is because you’ve been arrested for criminal damage and a Section 5 Public Order offence. I’m going to ask you some questions...

R: What do you mean a Section 5 Public Order offence?

I: I’ll explain that to you now. I’m going to ask you some questions that I consider relevant to the investigation, do not be put off by me making notes during the interview, I’m keeping a running record of what's being said. I’ll listen to what you say, if you can try not to nod or shake your head, I’ll just have to clarify what you mean by gestures. So just (inaudible 0:03:53) answer as clearly as you can when a question is necessary to prove or disprove your involvement in the offence under investigation. This is your opportunity to provide an explanation of your involvement, all right?

Time now is 01:56. I’m going to further arrest you for possession of a controlled substance. I’ll remind you you’re still under caution. Usually, at this point, I’d ask you what is called the responsibility question. I’d ask you, are you guilty of the offence. Are you guilty of the offence of possession of a controlled substance?

R: Yes.

I: Are you responsible for the offence of criminal damage?

R: Well, that’s more complicated really, isn’t it? I’m trying to engage people of Newport in the fact that women are in terrible trouble at the moment. And so I don’t view that as criminal damage, no, I view that as advertising. As with other people who use stickers etc. like Yes, Cymru and Joe Bloggs lawn mowing people or something. And also a lot of trans stickers as well which, you know, fine, I never, ever put anything over them. They’re entitled.

I: I’m going to ask you if you’re guilty of the public order offence. I’ve got a definition here, so I’ll read it out to you just so you can understand what is ‘cause I’m (inaudible 0:05:29) quite sure it meant.

DB: Just for the benefit of yourself, Ms Swain said that she’s not guilty of the criminal damage.

I: Okay, not guilty. The definition of public order, a person is guilty of an offence if he or she uses threatening or abusive words or behaviour or disorderly behaviour or displays any writing, sign (inaudible 0:05:55) a representation which is threatening or abusive in the hearing or sight of a person who are likely to be caused harassment, alarm or distress. So that’s the definition.

R: No, absolutely not. Unless someone’s really, really highly sensitive, that’s not my issue it’s theirs. They need to get counselling, bless them.

I: So I’ll break the interview down, bit by bit. We’ll cover the controlled substance bit first just ‘cause you’ve already said, yes, for that.

R: Hmm.

I: We searched your flat or house earlier and there was some cannabis found in a jar, is my understanding, that’s been seized. Do you want to talk to me about that?

R: Yeah, I used cannabis for the last about a year due to extreme ongoing pain in my knees, back, hips, shoulders, elbows and my left hand which I cannot use. And I think anyone would do that.

I: Yeah, okay. Do you have any medical conditions?

R: I’ve just told you.

I: What was it, sorry, I didn't hear it.

R: Arthritis. Rheumatoid arthritis in all my joints basically.

I: How long have you had rheumatoid arthritis?

R: It’s been getting worse over the last five years. I also have bipolar disorder as well, very severely.

I: Why do you have cannabis for that?

R: I told you, didn't I, pain. It helps the pain. I’m sorry, but, I mean... irritating.

I: No, I understand, I’ve just got to ask you all the questions so if it goes to court and you’ve had a chance to provide an explanation for everything, all right.

R: Yeah.

I: How do you get the cannabis?

R: From a man in a pub.

I: What do you normally do?

R: What do you mean?

I: How would you go about getting it?

R: Go to a pub.

I: And when you go to the pub what do you do?

R: Get some cannabis.

I: How do you go about getting cannabis?

R: Buy it.

I: So you buy cannabis, right. Where do you get it from normally, going to the pub, which pub would you normally go to?

R: Any.

I: Who do you normally get it from?

R: No comment.

I: How often do you use it?

R: Most days. I do not smoke it, I do not smoke.

I: How would you normally use it?

R: I fry it in ghee. It’s called holy ghee. I’m a Hindu.

I: Okay, so you put it in tea, is it?

R: No. In ghee.

I: I’m not sure what...

R: Clarified butter that is used in Indian cookery, when you get a takeaway and it’s a bit yellow, it’s that.

DB: Like saag?

R: No, saag is spinach, but it's in that saag aloo.

I: I understand you use it for pain relief, that’s understandable. Are you aware that you’re not meant to have it?

R: Yeah.

I: So it’s not prescribed to you by a doctor or anything like that?

R: No.

I: I’m going to ask you about the stickers now. Can you talk me through that?

R: What do you mean?

I: I’ll set the scene, we’ve had a number of reports in the last couple of weeks about these stickers all over lamp posts and things like that around Newport.

R: Like the Yes Cymru ones and the trans ones and all of the other ones, those stickers, were they complained about as well?

I: Not that I’m aware of no, but there’s been specific complaints about stickers that we think that you...

R: (Inaudible 0:09:52) stickers, don’t like feminist stickers...

I: I’m not here to get into... we’ve had reports the last couple of weeks about...

R: I’m pissed off.

I: People saying they're offended by anti trans stickers.

R: But they’re not anti trans, not one of my stickers has ever mentioned anything to do with trans. Ever.

I: I’m just relaying what people have said to us. All right. They’ve been found all over Newport in the last couple of weeks and earlier today you were seen placing them on lampposts by an officer. You’ve been stopped by the officer and subsequently arrested for criminal damage and a public order offence.

R: So hate crime?

I: Yeah, because purely procedure to be hate crime. So you said at the start of the interview, for example, that you’re trying to educate the public, is that right?

R: Yeah, I’m a teacher, it’s what they do.

I: Do you want to talk me through everything, why you’re sticking them... what they are, why you’re sticking them on the lamppost, what you’re trying to achieve, things like that?

R: As you will be aware because I’m sure that you’ve been Stonewalled. In 2015 trans was added to the LGB because LGB wasn’t providing enough money anymore because, obviously, when gay and lesbian marriage was made legal, quite rightly, and so trans people were taken onboard and subsequently took over. And it proved to be an excellent money spinner and so every... it’s a bit like a protection racket in that Stonewall will give you a little prize if you give them three thousand quid. If you had a training session, which you will have had, I’m sure, haven’t you?

I: Yeah, I do have training sessions, yeah.

R: Yeah, with Stonewall?

I: I don’t know if I have them from Stonewall but I’ve had certain sessions, yeah.

R: And so Stonewall charges three thousand pounds per small primary school so for a large thing like Gwent Police will be tens of thousands of pounds. And so you get this sort of like badge of being, I don’t know, Friend of Stonewall or something, or Friend of LGBTQIA blah blah. And then in order to get further up the list of wonderfulness you have to have more training sessions which cost many... So trans ideology or gender ideology as we call it has really taken off and it is taking over, basically, the entire superstructure which sociologically speaking is like the police, banks, social services, teaching, everything really. And so it means that they’ve got a huge amount of power and this is really very concerning for women because we’ve suddenly become the baddies and so we’re expected to share toilets with me, which is not on. I can no longer use public toilets because if there is a man in there, whether he’s wearing a very nice frock or not, he doesn’t have to, he can just rock up in his beard and jeans and workman boots if he wants and say he’s a woman. Then I (inaudible 0:13:35) PTSD, I would freak out. My Muslim friends, for example, can no longer go and use public toilets because they are not allowed to be in a situation of undress near men. That is haram, as you will know because of the mosque just round the corner. If you went and asked the imam he'd tell you.

And so we’ve got that situation, we’ve got men in prisons, as you know, like Karen White who was a sex offender and magically turned into a woman and magically got put into a woman’s prison and magically raped one and sexually assaulted two. So that’s just grand, isn’t it, and he's not the only one. There’s bloody loads ‘cause I’ve got all the statistics at home, I do my research very thoroughly. We’ve got problems in that our statistics are being changed so at the ONS you would pick up like, for example, rape, which is impossible without a penis, as being a female crime because the guy says he's a woman. As a police officer, I understand you can’t say a word about it but if you've got any brains at all you'd be thinking, fuck this for a lark, this is terrible.

Then we get onto language, not allowed to use language like womb or uterus, or vagina or anything like that. Labia, breasts, you have to do chest feeding, not breast feeding. Chest feeding. People saying that men can give birth, no, they can’t. A woman with a beard who thinks she’s a man through whatever reason, and that’s her business, has given birth, which is not magical and amazing because we do it all the time. Well, I suppose it is quite magical and amazing in one way in that anyone giving birth is quite amazing.

And then we’ve got the sports, haven’t we? And I’m sure, as a Welsh man, you are into sports because like all Welshmen seem to be, that’s a terrible generalisation, I am joking. So, of course, we’ve got the sports where men are taking part, very average sportsmen are taking part in female sports like, for example, the guy who at Penn State in American beat all the women by 30 seconds in the swimming pool, that just doesn’t happen. Usually, it’s like a third of a second or something and somebody wins it... but no, it’s a half a minute. That’s wrong. Those men taking part in rugby with women, there’s men taking part in volleyball with women. There’s men taking part in all the contact sports including things like martial arts...

DB: Mixed martial arts.

R: Yeah. Thank you. It’s where you've got men who have absolutely beaten the shit out of women, one woman had her jaw and cheekbone and face so badly broken she’s had to give up all sports. She’s completely been disfigured by the whole thing. Fallon Fox or whoever it was just laughed about it. I’m sure there’s a bit of bravado going on there because they have to sort of like keep up an appearance like those stupid bloody wrestlers my son was into. But apart from Dwain, the Rock, Johnson who is wonderful.

And so about five years ago I started investigating all of this because I could see something was amiss even though I was completely mental and on a huge amount of medication I thought to myself, right, this isn’t right. So I investigated it very, very thoroughly through reading, through film, through everything I could get my hands on and I thought, well, some people aren’t knowing this so I’d better tell them. And that’s why I do stickers.

I: So your goal now is to educate the public on that?

R: Yeah.

I: Okay. So with the stickers, talk me through how you obtained them, where you got them from.

R: I make them.

I: How do you make them?

R: On a computer.

I: You say you make them on a computer, do you design them yourself or do you order them from a website?

R: I design them myself. That way I know that they’re not transphobic. I had a couple of stickers sent to me from America I didn't use them because they have the word trans and I don’t use that word because I don’t want to offend anyone. I need a drink of water.

I: Are you all right to go through the interview?

R: No.

I: No, you need to stop now for some water, do you?

R: I need some water.

DB: You don’t need to stop. Just pour it. There’s no need to suspend it or anything.

I: Continuing the interview. We’ll continue where we left off, you said you designed the stickers yourself, how do you go about designing them, do you just do them on a computer programme at home?

R: Yeah.

I: What programme do you use, if you don’t mind me asking?

R: God, I can’t remember, it’s got a sort of feather on it.

I: Once you've created it, your design, how do you go about printing it, do you send them off to someone?

R: Yeah.

I: Who do you send them to?

R: No comment.

I: You get the stickers printed and then...

DB: Do you need a s.l. chair?

R: No, I’m okay at the moment.

DB: If you do, just let me know.

R: Okay, thank you.

I: So stickers are printed, then I’m presuming, how do you obtain them, do you pick them up, do you collect them, or...?

R: Post.

I: So you have them delivered to your house. Once they arrive, what do you do with the stickers?

R: Put them up.

I: Do you have any sort of process when you’re putting them up as to where you’re going to go or what you’re going to do?

R: It depends on where Dwain can manage going up hills really. My mobility scooter.

I: Who’s Dwain?

R: My mobility scooter.

I: Dwain’s your mobility scooter, okay.

R: My husband is Harold.

I: Okay, that’s fine. We’ve had a number of reports over the last couple of weeks, how long have you been putting these stickers up?

R: A year.

I: A year, is it? And where do you put them up normally?

R: On lampposts.

I: Anywhere specifically in Newport?

R: No.

I: And how often do you go out to put them on lampposts?

R: About three times a week.

I: You’ve been doing it for a while then. So you've been doing it for three times a week for the last year... you've been putting them up, okay?

R: Yeah.

I: I’m just going to show you some photographs to see if these are the sort of things that you put up. These were found, we’ve got a small collection, these were found on the 20th of October on Brangwen Road, Stowe Hill in the town centre. It (inaudible 0:22:21) cervixes is a women thing... can you clarify (inaudible 0:22:26) that sort of...?

R: Yeah, that’s mine. Cervix is a woman’s thing. Can I show it to you?

I: Yeah, of course.

R: A terrible thing to say, isn’t it? Hmm.

I: We’ve got pictures (inaudible 0:22:41) says, womb plus adult, something female? If I show you you might recognise it. They yours as well?

R: Woman equals an adult human female with two X chromosomes.

I: Okay.

R: Outside the Glenroy.

I: That’s okay, that’s great. (Inaudible 0:23:08) this is Brangwen Road as well, I think, so we’ve got Karen, presumably this is Karen the man you were talking about earlier in the interview.

R: Karen White?

I: Sorry, person I meant to say.

R: The nonce who was put away by the police?

I: And respect women’s spaces, women equals adult... is that yours?

R: Yeah. That’s my artwork there, I’m an artist as well.

I: These two I couldn’t make out because of the photo.

R: Let’s have a look.

I: These are HC01 to 06 basically, these are all...

R: Oh, I can’t make that one out.

I: No, it’s fine, if you can’t make it out don’t worry.

R: Oh, I can’t make that one out.

I: No, that’s okay, don’t worry. This one it’s got like any success and then there’s a picture of someone (inaudible 0:23:53) and then it says arse underneath or something like that?

R: [Laughs] Father Ted. So cis is the word that trans people call people who aren’t trans which I find, well you can fuck off. And then I’ve got Father Jack being angry and then underneath it says, arse. Which is what he used to say in the television programme. Arse, like that, arse.

I: So we’ve got a few more here. These were on the fifth of January, they were found, these were all on Elby Lane, next to the hospital which isn’t far from where you live.

R: (Multiple speakers) the trans guy went and had a look at them.

I: There’s one here that says, trans kids are like (inaudible 0:24:48) cats.

R: Now, those are not mine. Trans cats are not mine.

I: Whose are those?

R: Haven’t got a clue.

I: So you didn't put those...?

R: Absolutely not. I don’t put anything with trans on it.

I: Right. So when we searched your property...

R: Hmm, yeah, you will have found some.

I: Yeah.

R: But I don’t use them.

I: Right.

DB: She explained that, I think, in relation to the stuff that was posted from America.

I: Right, okay.

R: Hmm.

I: So (inaudible 0:25:13)?

R: Yeah.

I: Where did you get those?

R: From a friend.

I: Is the friend American?

R: Yes.

I: How did you meet that friend?

R: Online.

I: When you go online is there a sort of website or forums that you go to, or things like that, anywhere that’s sort of...?

R: Well, it'll be easy enough to know that Facebook and Twitter [sic] and that and Getter but other than that, no comment.

I: So you've got more... I must ask you if you put these up, so the threat is more (inaudible 0:25:58) to women only rape crisis, domestic violence hostels, toilets, thoughts...?

R: Yeah.

I: What do you mean by that?

R: Well, there shouldn’t be men in domestic violence hostels with vulnerable women and their kids, there shouldn’t be men in rape crisis houses with vulnerable women. There shouldn’t be... let me have a look... there shouldn’t be men in our fucking bogs and there shouldn’t be men in our sports. So there we go and here we are, here’s one saying, three plus women killed by men each week. Domestic violence kills, which, as a police officer, you will have seen the sharp end of that.

I: I couldn’t print this photograph in colour so the top half of it is missing, but these were found today, yesterday now, by the officer on a lamppost where the bottom part says, humans never change sex. Have a look at that and just sort of...?

R: Yeah, well, they don’t, do they? And there’s a nice little QR sticker for you as well.

I: Where does the QR sticker take you?

R: I can’t remember, there’s so many.

I: A sort of website to something I’m guessing.

R: Yeah...

I: That links you to a website normally, isn’t it, normally, a QR code.

R: Yeah.

I: Which websites do they link you to?

R: Just whichever I fancy putting up.

I: Is there any one in particular?

R: No.

I: Can you think of any examples of ones that you've used?

R: No comment.

I: These are all the same stickers that have been found on different dates. Nonce news, women are in danger as 50% of the male prisoners who claim to be women are sex offenders and can be housed with vulnerable women who have been raped and assaulted, please talk about this.

R: Yeah, I need a conversation about it.

I: Did you put all these stickers up?

R: I did.

I: So you put all the stickers up, (inaudible 0:27:58) Park is the trans cat sticker...

R: What?

I: So all the stickers that I’ve shown you, you have put them up except the trans cat sticker?

R: Yeah, a few people had the trans cat, that was not me.

I: These few people, who are the few people?

R: No comment. See I told no lies in any of this, you see.

I: No, I’m not saying you...

R: No, also my posters, no lies.

I: When you apply these stickers, how do you apply them to the lamppost?

R: Well, I take them off the backing and carefully put it on ‘cause I’ve only got one fully working hand and drive off on my little scooter. Like, I don’t know, hell’s grannies or something.

I: Do you use any spray or adhesive or anything like that?

R: Yes, I do, sometimes. Not all the time.

I: What kind of spray or adhesive do you use?

R: It depends how I’m feeling really but I’ve been trying out plumbing sealant to see if that keeps them dry. Just something I just enjoy doing. Monitoring the situation of the death of a sticker really.

I: Yeah, okay. So you take off the back, you place it on the lamppost, and then do you apply the sealant over that?

R: If I feel like it, most of the time I don’t bother.

I: Okay, so how often would you do that?

R: What?

I: Apply the sealant on the sticker?

R: Well, if it’s in... I don’t know, it's hard to say ‘cause it’s like I don’t really think about it. I just say, oh... if I’ve got more than one sticker on a lamppost then I’ll put a little bit of adhesive over the top or sealant over the top. But usually I don’t bother ‘cause it costs a lot.

I: Have you ever put any sort of glass underneath the stickers or anything like that?

R: I beg your pardon?

I: Just a question ‘cause it’s been mentioned in one of the logs that someone may have deliberately put glass behind one...

R: Utter bullshit.

I: So you apply the stickers... I’ll give you a definition of criminal damage and I’ll ask if you think the criteria is met for that. So the definition is a person who without lawful excuse destroys or damages any property belonging to another, attempting to destroy or damage any such property and being reckless as to whether any such property would be destroyed or damaged. By applying that sealer do you think that you may damage that property?

R: No.

I: When you apply the sealer, what happens to the sealer or the property you are applying it to?

R: I think it just gets taken down.

I: Okay.

R: The council have got some really good shit for taking stuff down. It’s fine, it’s all part of the game.

I: When you apply these stickers, I’m going to ask you now, what is your intention for people when they see them?

R: My intention is for people to think, oh my god, what does that mean, I must find out, or with the ones that have got a bit of information, oh my god, I didn't know about that. I must find out, or I must talk to somebody about it, did you know that this is happening... because quietly it is happening. More noisily now but it is happening.

I: Do you understand that some members of the public have called us and said that it has caused them to feel alarm and distress?

R: What, by a feminist sticker, what would offend, I don’t understand, a feminist sticker?

I: I haven’t used the word, offend, but they did find it offensive, yeah. It’s not up to me to talk for them but...

R: But why, but why would it be offensive to anyone when it is specifically for women?

I: Okay. When we went to your property, did a search of your property, there was a large amount of stickers and posters and stuff like that. What were you intending to do with all those?

R: Stick them up.

DB: Other than the trans ones, I presume.

R: Other than the trans cat one, yeah. I never use the word, trans.

I: I think I’ve asked you everything that I want to ask you. Is there anything you want to add or amend to what’s been said today?

DB: Do you know what the intention is going to be, is it RUI, police bail?

I: I’ve spoken to the sergeant, I think it will be RUI, I don’t see any necessity for bail...

DB: I’ll explain in the morning...

R: Okay.

I: Is there anything you want to add or amend to your account in terms of what you've said to me now in interview?

R: I’ve done nothing wrong, I have continued with my profession of educating the public and that glass thing is just rubbish, it’s an urban myth that’s been going around bloody years.

I: Yeah, okay. The time now is 02:28 and I will bring the interview to a close there.