Amid the five-day debate over whether men have a cervix or not, also known as the 2021 Labour Party Conference, a councillor revealed they’d suffered transphobic abuse in the conference toilets.
I'm no shrinking violet, but if I saw either of those people in the women's toilets I'd be running out of there as fast as I could, not waiting to find out if they fell into the "harmless weirdo" or "dangerous weirdo" category. The idea that women would intimidate either of them is laughable.
As with any of these kinds of "trans" they are out and out, blatant liars.
This needs to be said every time they lie.
When they lie about their "sex", when they lie about the so called "abuse" from women when they invade Women's spaces.
Its like Izzard whining about how "abused" he felt when a group of 13 yr old girls were very unhappy and vocal about telling him, obviously a man, to get out of the Female only toilets. He was much older than them. A skirt and lipstick is not a qualifier for access to female only single sex facilities.
And frankly Izzard going in there, seeing 13 yr olds in there and STILL going in, sends up red flags!
It drives me nuts, big blokes in skirts pretending to be afraid of a physically weaker person. Like you, strong as I am, I know I'm no match for a man even of my height and weight.
I've been doing kickboxing for a number of years (not that I'm very good at it) and one of the most eye-opening things I learnt was at a self-defence class they were running. I was working with a black belt - lovely man - on how to get out of various grabs and holds. After a couple of tries at breaking a wrist hold - just a wrist hold! - he said to me "Look, you're doing the right method but you have to apply it with all the force you own to even stand a chance to get out of this for real. I'm not even trying." He then asked very careful permission if he could basically hold my wrist like he meant it. I agreed to this - it was a safe environment, and I'd known and trusted him for a number of years. He did it without hurting - but holy crap it was like trying to shift iron. You have to be able to apply these techniques in such a way that the body mechanics works in your favour - and, yes, with all the force you own. Sure, he was fit, but he wasn't huge, only had a couple inches on me in height. I just hadn't appreciated how much force a man could bring to bear until that moment - probably still don't, given how controlled that was.
Playing victim is a form of abuse. And these fetishtic men get a sexual thrill from cosplaying women who are terrified of sexual abuse. It's a sex game to them. And we're all expected play along.
They never ever talk about the "abuse" they get from other men though. Probably because the moment they "claim" it, they will get voices calling them out over it. But pretend and lie that women are doing so....and applause is all round.
Funny though, they STILL want to go into the women's spaces, yet are apparently being "abused".
Not directly, but I admit it did come to mind. When I saw "Patricia" crash his mobility scooter into the podium, it reminded me of Yaniv and that poor deluded bloke charging women at Holyrood with his zimmer frame.
But seriously, why not? Disabled loos are already unisex, they're in most public buildings and offices, they're not usually too busy so I few trans people using them won't hurt. If trans people are that worried about people freaking out, laughing at them or getting beaten-up... Surely I'm not the first person who's thought of this!?
Oh. Sorry if you're joking or being sarcastic, but no. I may be having a major sense of humour bypass, but they can't. To be serious, and I am, they have absolutely no legitimate reason to use facilities for those with actual, disabilities or ill health. Who need that extra space, or space and facilities designed for access. If they have disabilities, yes, but it's not need vs choice. There is already conflict enough with 'invisible disabilities' and those who 'identify as disabled'. Narcissists will appropriate anything to gain any advantage. Many disabled people are finding the levels of abuse are higher, as no one believes anything now, because some claim some special identity that marginalises them more than others. Members of the public and staff are confused and hesitant. Many assume everyone is pretending. Everyone is the exception. Genuinely marginalised are stuffed unless they are also bulletproof and articulate enough.
The number of times I've heard the 'well no one was using it' reasoning and I have had to explain, that with parking spaces or seating areas, or loos, that no, it's not occupied until it is, and if someone without the need is occupying it, someone with that need, well, they can't. Then what? It is wearing to have to risk a confrontation, or the need to perform and justify your need to strangers in order to go about your day-to-day business.
The Equality Act 2010 and other legislation is being misapplied or misunderstood and there is often a conflict of rights. People with disabilities and genuinely vulnerable people are slipping down the list again and many are becoming too fearful of being accused of bigotry.
I am not exaggerating to say people will, and already, avoid any space or place where they feel uncomfortable, and by that I mean unsafe, or open to abuse. Or where access barriers are too high.
Yes I agree wholeheartedly. My son of 21 has severe learning disabilities and is vulnerable and I need to accompany him to the disabled loo. When that is unavailable I send him alone into the men’s toilet and constantly have to ask the blokes coming out if they’ve seen him and if he’s ok (he always does come out ok in the end, but I’ve had to go in and check for myself a few times!) I take him into the ladies with me if it’s not too busy but I don’t like to because… you know… he’s not female. So, it’s hard when the disabled loo is occupied. He is not great at waiting!
That's a very valid point. I was being flippant and I should have expanded on the problems it would cause disabled people.
However in fairness to trans people not all of them are simply narcissists (I think lots of us GCs can be biased because we tend to focus on only the most extreme), I feel for those that are truly suffering gender dysphoria as I see that as a genuine mental illness and they suffer much the same stigma / marginalisation as disabled people.
Would it really be that bad a compromise if a handful of trans people used the disabled loo once in a while? I don't think it's comparable to those selfish assholes that park in disabled parking spaces...
I'm not suggesting all are narcissists or that this is in any way simple. It is the demands for rights to be in female spaces and no debate and accusations of bigotry that I have a real issue with. That's not coming from a place of respect. And the lack of debate as to how sensitive this may be.
I am also loathe to apply one layer of marginalisation to another. They are not the same, and people do not face the same barriers. Some are literal barriers. So when some men, no matter what their mental health issues, demand I give up my sex segregated spaces, I have a right to be heard. Is there need for validation of their mental health more valid than me or mine?
Mental illness is not the same as disability and not the same as selfishness. Dysphoria is not the same as gender dysphoria. Or any other protected characteristic and saying they are, or that it's all the same generic discrimination, seems an intersectionality too far for me. The appropriated victimhood of the angry trans woman at the Labour conference was revealing. And the inconsistencies in what was said. Then the compelled speech. I was intimidated by their aggression, not any intelligence or veracity or passion. I have to travel to hospitals far from where I live, that's not a trans rights issue, yet it was yet another source of victimhood.
I don't see how being selfish enough to use a parking space you don't need is any different to other facilities designated for the use of people with disabilities. Is it a handful? If any boy, from the age of 12 to 16 can self-ID as a girl after three months, that's far more than a handful. And a few in every community, and in every space can impact on many more women and girls. Where is the supposed balance there? Why are lesbians being accused of being bigots for not forcing themselves to date fully intact men choosing to identify as women? And why are so many girls removing their breasts and making themselves potentially infertile? As are boys?
Of course edges are blurred and there is discretion. Pragmatism. And who would police this, other than in essence, ourselves and in our communities. It's the glee with which some boys and men are choosing to exhibit, like some civil rights achievement, their removal of the sex-based rights of women and girls that fills me with dread. It's boundary crashing, sure, but I don't believe that's about their human or civil rights. That's gaining power over others and it's a heady thing. It seems to be about destroying, harassing and somehow winning and getting one over on the most privileged and protected class, that they somehow accuse women of being. It appears like jealousy. The desire to know what feeling 'female' or 'feminine' is like and the 'fragility' and 'weakness' and playing and fetishising it.
'The since I became a woman' phenomena seems a no shit Sherlock moment. You're only fighting for women's rights now? Now you're classing yourself as one? And many TRAs are pursuing this in the most vicious and male way imaginable?
It's tragic that all it took to get a standing ovation at the Labour Party conference was a hyperbolic and unsubstantiated claim. With idiots like this, from Starmer down, the UK is going to be stuck with the Tories for years to come.
Sitting here in an irrational bad mood, with debilitating period pain wishing one of these idiots had one iota of understanding what that’s like to live with.
Speaking of which, when I hear the Pendle councillor ranting on the Conference stage, I get very strong Jimmy Savile vibes. I've listened three times now and I feel the same each time.
Who, self-identifying "Savile's apprentice" Billy-BigFoot MadAgain? I think I recall him posting a couple of Savile-inspired selfies as part of his lengthy trolling campaign but Idk if this particular pic is one of his, or if the shiny jacket and cigar are 'shopped in as comment.
Funny how they aren't calling for toilets away from "cis" people then isn't it? If this were true they'd be calling for trans safe spaces and noone would even care.
He couldn't tell she was a woman but he could read her mind which confirmed that she was a woman on the basis of her self perception. As that person said themselves, ugh.
Professor Dame Anne Glover: First Minister is wrong to ignore the science on gender identity
"The first chief scientific adviser to serve a devolved Scottish Government has hit out at the SNP’s stance on reform of the Gender Recognition Act (GRA), saying that scientific evidence shows that sex is binary.
Professor Dame Anne Glover, who was Scotland’s chief scientific adviser between 2006 and 2011, said that proposed reforms that would allow trans women to legally self-declare themselves biological women and trans men to self-declare themselves biological men make no sense from a scientific point of view."
They're still doing that "cis-women, black women, lesbian women and disabled women" thing, as if listing them all like some different species is super-progressive... it makes me want to puke!
These men make me feel sick. Their narcissism is abhorrent, as is their utter hatred of women. WHY are women having such men forced upon us? Upon our daughters/granddaughters spaces and rights too?
The basis of this is that he shouldn’t be in the ladies toilets because he is a man. Full stop. His feelings should take a hike. Obey societies norms. Women and girls are not your validation vessels. He’s a perv in a bad wig. Anyone can see that. He should hit the gents and take his chances. End of. Tough shit to his feelings. He is a bloke. And he knows that. Take the hit. What can men do here? Really! Apart from give cheer. If a situation asked I would of course pull a pervert in a nylon wig out of the ladies. And take the consequences from that. But what we surely want is general society taking back general society norms. Men use the gents. Regardless of dress or wig. But women need to become much more confrontational on this whole matter. Don’t be conciliatory. Now is the time to fight. Lay boundaries. Don’t be kind to people who want affirmation into your spaces. Any man who is pretending to be women must be seen as a predator by prudent default. You know and i know they are probably pervs. Tell them to take a hike. Their feels, their oppression are not your problem. Tell them to use the gents and/ or the changing rooms for their sex. Their issues with that are their problem. Not yours. Again be brutal. You don’t owe these people any concessions or consul. It’s not your problem that their wig is shit. And that they feel troubled by using the gents. That’s their problem not yours. They are predators. Tell them to fuck off. The days for conciliatory behaviour are over. No means No. Draw a line on the sand. Men should not be in women only spaces. Regardless if you’re a eunuch or fully hung. The days for compromise are over. You need to be firm. Fuck off and stay out of or spaces.
I agree with much of what you say, but are you a man, 'fully hung'?
I and we have been and are fighting and we do need back up. My lines have been drawn time and again though. Ignored time and again. I really truly do know that no means no. I've screamed it in men's faces after they've ignored it the first few times I've said it. Am I not already being very clear and very firm? I need more than cheer, I need the entire opposition benches, the criminal justice system and the other Stonewalled institutions to stop playing games.
I don't want to be much more confrontational than I am now. It's really not safe to. I'm not sure how we do this. How would you wish us to confront this? What does being confrontational look like? We are already and are repeatedly telling them to take a hike. I am sick of confrontation. Sick of threats and pot shots. And I don't want my neck broken, face punched or threatened by some lunatic man who is incensed that I confronted him, with his female allies cheering him on for silencing the terf bigot. Or have some police officers knocking at my door for having been confrontational and committed some unidentifiable thought crime, I mean 'hate speech'.
These men and women supporters don't seem to realise that there isn't a cervix check next to the coat check. Never has been. I'm usually fairly private. It didn't take up hours of my waking hours worrying about. We manage to respect each other without internal exams in these shared and public spaces and that involves trust and knowing it's only women and children present. No need for more scrutiny than that. They are known places to have a pause and safe space to retreat to when out. And of course for those who genuinely live as transwomen having gone through that gender reassignment process as was. Not these shouty demanding TRA ones, in fact often the opposite. The rule was no adult human men, as in those who have male genitalia, penises and testicles. They are disrupting so much of the societal norms, structures and legislation, that mean we used to find and go into a room, with a female symbol or some amusing take on it, and not really have to think more than that here in the UK and in most places all over the world more or less. We had a reasonably accurate expectation of what will happen in there. Who will be in there. Functioning drainage and nominally potable water. Small boys present with sisters or older women, but no men as in boys past a certain age. Notices to warn us if a man would be cleaning and therefore present. Maybe we'll have to queue, maybe there won't be loo roll (always try to carry wipes or equivalent), maybe the bowl is blocked or cubicle too small to use easily, maybe the sanitary bin is full and overflowing. Maybe the lock is broken. Maybe someone asks me to pass some loo roll underneath if there's a gap. Maybe I sit and quietly cry in a cubicle. Or I hear someone else. Maybe I can't work out the newfangled hand dryer. Maybe I'm with a child who needs my help, or to adjust their clothing, lift them up to taps or push a button. Maybe it's spotless. Maybe I'm on autopilot and notice little. Maybe there's a make up or hand washing observance ritual and I feel too shy to overtly check my image in the mirrors if there are others in there. Maybe I take ages and even change my clothes. Maybe smiles or looks, maybe at the sinks someone compliments someone or makes chit chat, or can I watch their suitcase as it won't fit in the stall, or can they get past me please. Or isn't it bad weather. Or kids are being changed or are crying or being comforted or someone is helping someone. Maybe I'm rushing to get a train. Maybe no one interacts at all with anyone and gets in and out in a perfunctory way.
Now I am concerned, say I'm at a conference, and some male Labour activist is in there and there will be a confrontation. With me, or I witness one. And with confrontations you can't predict how they will turn out. I don't want to be forced into them, and we are being more and more as all our safer spaces are being colonised.
Again. I couldn't agree more. It is not easy to confront someone at the best of times, but when you are already feeling somewhat violated and are worried about the consequences of taking on someone emboldened by the support they get by their women supporters, then it is not a prudent thing. We have already been shown, time and again what happens to women when they speak up. That is not to say we shouldn't speak up, but we need to sometimes choose when to do so. And that's the crux of it all really - we don't feel safe in women only spaces and we do not feel it is safe to speak up. I would love to feel that if I confronted someone then everyone there would back me up, but the likelihood is that I would get jeered and insulted, possibly assaulted. I also have to work against a lifetime of conditioning to "know my place". It's not so easy.
Brilliantly written by Debbie Heyton !! Says it all really. Pity it isn't compulsory reading for all mps ,police ,nhs managers ( who should know better ) etc
I'm no shrinking violet, but if I saw either of those people in the women's toilets I'd be running out of there as fast as I could, not waiting to find out if they fell into the "harmless weirdo" or "dangerous weirdo" category. The idea that women would intimidate either of them is laughable.
As with any of these kinds of "trans" they are out and out, blatant liars.
This needs to be said every time they lie.
When they lie about their "sex", when they lie about the so called "abuse" from women when they invade Women's spaces.
Its like Izzard whining about how "abused" he felt when a group of 13 yr old girls were very unhappy and vocal about telling him, obviously a man, to get out of the Female only toilets. He was much older than them. A skirt and lipstick is not a qualifier for access to female only single sex facilities.
And frankly Izzard going in there, seeing 13 yr olds in there and STILL going in, sends up red flags!
I’d love to hear from those girls now, I wonder where they are?
It drives me nuts, big blokes in skirts pretending to be afraid of a physically weaker person. Like you, strong as I am, I know I'm no match for a man even of my height and weight.
I've been doing kickboxing for a number of years (not that I'm very good at it) and one of the most eye-opening things I learnt was at a self-defence class they were running. I was working with a black belt - lovely man - on how to get out of various grabs and holds. After a couple of tries at breaking a wrist hold - just a wrist hold! - he said to me "Look, you're doing the right method but you have to apply it with all the force you own to even stand a chance to get out of this for real. I'm not even trying." He then asked very careful permission if he could basically hold my wrist like he meant it. I agreed to this - it was a safe environment, and I'd known and trusted him for a number of years. He did it without hurting - but holy crap it was like trying to shift iron. You have to be able to apply these techniques in such a way that the body mechanics works in your favour - and, yes, with all the force you own. Sure, he was fit, but he wasn't huge, only had a couple inches on me in height. I just hadn't appreciated how much force a man could bring to bear until that moment - probably still don't, given how controlled that was.
Playing victim is a form of abuse. And these fetishtic men get a sexual thrill from cosplaying women who are terrified of sexual abuse. It's a sex game to them. And we're all expected play along.
Stay in the men's guys you will be safe. Seriously what do they think normal men are going to do to them?
If they just want to use a toilet do it in there.
Quite. Normal men just want to pee. Not get a semi from applying lippy in the ladies.
They never ever talk about the "abuse" they get from other men though. Probably because the moment they "claim" it, they will get voices calling them out over it. But pretend and lie that women are doing so....and applause is all round.
Funny though, they STILL want to go into the women's spaces, yet are apparently being "abused".
They could just use the disabled bog, problem solved!
Is this by any chance a reference to an IT Crowd episode? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aW2esYwKxiU
Not directly, but I admit it did come to mind. When I saw "Patricia" crash his mobility scooter into the podium, it reminded me of Yaniv and that poor deluded bloke charging women at Holyrood with his zimmer frame.
But seriously, why not? Disabled loos are already unisex, they're in most public buildings and offices, they're not usually too busy so I few trans people using them won't hurt. If trans people are that worried about people freaking out, laughing at them or getting beaten-up... Surely I'm not the first person who's thought of this!?
Oh. Sorry if you're joking or being sarcastic, but no. I may be having a major sense of humour bypass, but they can't. To be serious, and I am, they have absolutely no legitimate reason to use facilities for those with actual, disabilities or ill health. Who need that extra space, or space and facilities designed for access. If they have disabilities, yes, but it's not need vs choice. There is already conflict enough with 'invisible disabilities' and those who 'identify as disabled'. Narcissists will appropriate anything to gain any advantage. Many disabled people are finding the levels of abuse are higher, as no one believes anything now, because some claim some special identity that marginalises them more than others. Members of the public and staff are confused and hesitant. Many assume everyone is pretending. Everyone is the exception. Genuinely marginalised are stuffed unless they are also bulletproof and articulate enough.
The number of times I've heard the 'well no one was using it' reasoning and I have had to explain, that with parking spaces or seating areas, or loos, that no, it's not occupied until it is, and if someone without the need is occupying it, someone with that need, well, they can't. Then what? It is wearing to have to risk a confrontation, or the need to perform and justify your need to strangers in order to go about your day-to-day business.
The Equality Act 2010 and other legislation is being misapplied or misunderstood and there is often a conflict of rights. People with disabilities and genuinely vulnerable people are slipping down the list again and many are becoming too fearful of being accused of bigotry.
I am not exaggerating to say people will, and already, avoid any space or place where they feel uncomfortable, and by that I mean unsafe, or open to abuse. Or where access barriers are too high.
Yes I agree wholeheartedly. My son of 21 has severe learning disabilities and is vulnerable and I need to accompany him to the disabled loo. When that is unavailable I send him alone into the men’s toilet and constantly have to ask the blokes coming out if they’ve seen him and if he’s ok (he always does come out ok in the end, but I’ve had to go in and check for myself a few times!) I take him into the ladies with me if it’s not too busy but I don’t like to because… you know… he’s not female. So, it’s hard when the disabled loo is occupied. He is not great at waiting!
That's a very valid point. I was being flippant and I should have expanded on the problems it would cause disabled people.
However in fairness to trans people not all of them are simply narcissists (I think lots of us GCs can be biased because we tend to focus on only the most extreme), I feel for those that are truly suffering gender dysphoria as I see that as a genuine mental illness and they suffer much the same stigma / marginalisation as disabled people.
Would it really be that bad a compromise if a handful of trans people used the disabled loo once in a while? I don't think it's comparable to those selfish assholes that park in disabled parking spaces...
Anyway, now you've got me think about this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPzjbXgaVOk
I'm not suggesting all are narcissists or that this is in any way simple. It is the demands for rights to be in female spaces and no debate and accusations of bigotry that I have a real issue with. That's not coming from a place of respect. And the lack of debate as to how sensitive this may be.
I am also loathe to apply one layer of marginalisation to another. They are not the same, and people do not face the same barriers. Some are literal barriers. So when some men, no matter what their mental health issues, demand I give up my sex segregated spaces, I have a right to be heard. Is there need for validation of their mental health more valid than me or mine?
Mental illness is not the same as disability and not the same as selfishness. Dysphoria is not the same as gender dysphoria. Or any other protected characteristic and saying they are, or that it's all the same generic discrimination, seems an intersectionality too far for me. The appropriated victimhood of the angry trans woman at the Labour conference was revealing. And the inconsistencies in what was said. Then the compelled speech. I was intimidated by their aggression, not any intelligence or veracity or passion. I have to travel to hospitals far from where I live, that's not a trans rights issue, yet it was yet another source of victimhood.
I don't see how being selfish enough to use a parking space you don't need is any different to other facilities designated for the use of people with disabilities. Is it a handful? If any boy, from the age of 12 to 16 can self-ID as a girl after three months, that's far more than a handful. And a few in every community, and in every space can impact on many more women and girls. Where is the supposed balance there? Why are lesbians being accused of being bigots for not forcing themselves to date fully intact men choosing to identify as women? And why are so many girls removing their breasts and making themselves potentially infertile? As are boys?
Of course edges are blurred and there is discretion. Pragmatism. And who would police this, other than in essence, ourselves and in our communities. It's the glee with which some boys and men are choosing to exhibit, like some civil rights achievement, their removal of the sex-based rights of women and girls that fills me with dread. It's boundary crashing, sure, but I don't believe that's about their human or civil rights. That's gaining power over others and it's a heady thing. It seems to be about destroying, harassing and somehow winning and getting one over on the most privileged and protected class, that they somehow accuse women of being. It appears like jealousy. The desire to know what feeling 'female' or 'feminine' is like and the 'fragility' and 'weakness' and playing and fetishising it.
'The since I became a woman' phenomena seems a no shit Sherlock moment. You're only fighting for women's rights now? Now you're classing yourself as one? And many TRAs are pursuing this in the most vicious and male way imaginable?
And if they're afraid of other men, how do they think we feel?
It's tragic that all it took to get a standing ovation at the Labour Party conference was a hyperbolic and unsubstantiated claim. With idiots like this, from Starmer down, the UK is going to be stuck with the Tories for years to come.
Sitting here in an irrational bad mood, with debilitating period pain wishing one of these idiots had one iota of understanding what that’s like to live with.
Also, is he dressed as Jimmy Seville?
Speaking of which, when I hear the Pendle councillor ranting on the Conference stage, I get very strong Jimmy Savile vibes. I've listened three times now and I feel the same each time.
It's horrible and I hope you feel better soon. Incidentally I have had great success with Mense-Ease, a Chinese herbal formula.
Who, self-identifying "Savile's apprentice" Billy-BigFoot MadAgain? I think I recall him posting a couple of Savile-inspired selfies as part of his lengthy trolling campaign but Idk if this particular pic is one of his, or if the shiny jacket and cigar are 'shopped in as comment.
Period pain!? That's nothing imagine what it's like for us poor Labour party members having watch these gaslighting loonies at conference each year!
"Cis privilege is not being scared every time you go to the toilet." I see what he did there.
Funny how they aren't calling for toilets away from "cis" people then isn't it? If this were true they'd be calling for trans safe spaces and noone would even care.
I'm scared of seeing some hairy-arsed man in a frock in the ladies.
Yes, another 'privilege' being removed from us
‘How exactly do you think he knew her sex?’ seems like the dumbest question ever. Could someone explain how it could be said seriously?
He couldn't tell she was a woman but he could read her mind which confirmed that she was a woman on the basis of her self perception. As that person said themselves, ugh.
Shows f I how idiotic their "arguments " are !!
Is it just me or is Lily Madigan's look fashioned on Jimmy Savile? They could be twins.
I assumed it was fancy dress, in incredibly poor taste.
Professor Dame Anne Glover: First Minister is wrong to ignore the science on gender identity
"The first chief scientific adviser to serve a devolved Scottish Government has hit out at the SNP’s stance on reform of the Gender Recognition Act (GRA), saying that scientific evidence shows that sex is binary.
Professor Dame Anne Glover, who was Scotland’s chief scientific adviser between 2006 and 2011, said that proposed reforms that would allow trans women to legally self-declare themselves biological women and trans men to self-declare themselves biological men make no sense from a scientific point of view."
https://www.holyrood.com/news/view,professor-dame-anne-glover-first-minister-is-wrong-to-ignore-the-science-on-gender-identity
Good article, thank you
Hooray! Glad she didn't sell out science - or women.
They're still doing that "cis-women, black women, lesbian women and disabled women" thing, as if listing them all like some different species is super-progressive... it makes me want to puke!
These men make me feel sick. Their narcissism is abhorrent, as is their utter hatred of women. WHY are women having such men forced upon us? Upon our daughters/granddaughters spaces and rights too?
Patriarchy, hyper sexualization of everything and women as products for global finance.
The basis of this is that he shouldn’t be in the ladies toilets because he is a man. Full stop. His feelings should take a hike. Obey societies norms. Women and girls are not your validation vessels. He’s a perv in a bad wig. Anyone can see that. He should hit the gents and take his chances. End of. Tough shit to his feelings. He is a bloke. And he knows that. Take the hit. What can men do here? Really! Apart from give cheer. If a situation asked I would of course pull a pervert in a nylon wig out of the ladies. And take the consequences from that. But what we surely want is general society taking back general society norms. Men use the gents. Regardless of dress or wig. But women need to become much more confrontational on this whole matter. Don’t be conciliatory. Now is the time to fight. Lay boundaries. Don’t be kind to people who want affirmation into your spaces. Any man who is pretending to be women must be seen as a predator by prudent default. You know and i know they are probably pervs. Tell them to take a hike. Their feels, their oppression are not your problem. Tell them to use the gents and/ or the changing rooms for their sex. Their issues with that are their problem. Not yours. Again be brutal. You don’t owe these people any concessions or consul. It’s not your problem that their wig is shit. And that they feel troubled by using the gents. That’s their problem not yours. They are predators. Tell them to fuck off. The days for conciliatory behaviour are over. No means No. Draw a line on the sand. Men should not be in women only spaces. Regardless if you’re a eunuch or fully hung. The days for compromise are over. You need to be firm. Fuck off and stay out of or spaces.
I agree with much of what you say, but are you a man, 'fully hung'?
I and we have been and are fighting and we do need back up. My lines have been drawn time and again though. Ignored time and again. I really truly do know that no means no. I've screamed it in men's faces after they've ignored it the first few times I've said it. Am I not already being very clear and very firm? I need more than cheer, I need the entire opposition benches, the criminal justice system and the other Stonewalled institutions to stop playing games.
I don't want to be much more confrontational than I am now. It's really not safe to. I'm not sure how we do this. How would you wish us to confront this? What does being confrontational look like? We are already and are repeatedly telling them to take a hike. I am sick of confrontation. Sick of threats and pot shots. And I don't want my neck broken, face punched or threatened by some lunatic man who is incensed that I confronted him, with his female allies cheering him on for silencing the terf bigot. Or have some police officers knocking at my door for having been confrontational and committed some unidentifiable thought crime, I mean 'hate speech'.
These men and women supporters don't seem to realise that there isn't a cervix check next to the coat check. Never has been. I'm usually fairly private. It didn't take up hours of my waking hours worrying about. We manage to respect each other without internal exams in these shared and public spaces and that involves trust and knowing it's only women and children present. No need for more scrutiny than that. They are known places to have a pause and safe space to retreat to when out. And of course for those who genuinely live as transwomen having gone through that gender reassignment process as was. Not these shouty demanding TRA ones, in fact often the opposite. The rule was no adult human men, as in those who have male genitalia, penises and testicles. They are disrupting so much of the societal norms, structures and legislation, that mean we used to find and go into a room, with a female symbol or some amusing take on it, and not really have to think more than that here in the UK and in most places all over the world more or less. We had a reasonably accurate expectation of what will happen in there. Who will be in there. Functioning drainage and nominally potable water. Small boys present with sisters or older women, but no men as in boys past a certain age. Notices to warn us if a man would be cleaning and therefore present. Maybe we'll have to queue, maybe there won't be loo roll (always try to carry wipes or equivalent), maybe the bowl is blocked or cubicle too small to use easily, maybe the sanitary bin is full and overflowing. Maybe the lock is broken. Maybe someone asks me to pass some loo roll underneath if there's a gap. Maybe I sit and quietly cry in a cubicle. Or I hear someone else. Maybe I can't work out the newfangled hand dryer. Maybe I'm with a child who needs my help, or to adjust their clothing, lift them up to taps or push a button. Maybe it's spotless. Maybe I'm on autopilot and notice little. Maybe there's a make up or hand washing observance ritual and I feel too shy to overtly check my image in the mirrors if there are others in there. Maybe I take ages and even change my clothes. Maybe smiles or looks, maybe at the sinks someone compliments someone or makes chit chat, or can I watch their suitcase as it won't fit in the stall, or can they get past me please. Or isn't it bad weather. Or kids are being changed or are crying or being comforted or someone is helping someone. Maybe I'm rushing to get a train. Maybe no one interacts at all with anyone and gets in and out in a perfunctory way.
Now I am concerned, say I'm at a conference, and some male Labour activist is in there and there will be a confrontation. With me, or I witness one. And with confrontations you can't predict how they will turn out. I don't want to be forced into them, and we are being more and more as all our safer spaces are being colonised.
Again. I couldn't agree more. It is not easy to confront someone at the best of times, but when you are already feeling somewhat violated and are worried about the consequences of taking on someone emboldened by the support they get by their women supporters, then it is not a prudent thing. We have already been shown, time and again what happens to women when they speak up. That is not to say we shouldn't speak up, but we need to sometimes choose when to do so. And that's the crux of it all really - we don't feel safe in women only spaces and we do not feel it is safe to speak up. I would love to feel that if I confronted someone then everyone there would back me up, but the likelihood is that I would get jeered and insulted, possibly assaulted. I also have to work against a lifetime of conditioning to "know my place". It's not so easy.
Yes, like the wi-spa video clearly shows. Some support but certainly not universal in the video, and then massive vilification after it was published.
I think the vast majority of women (myself included) would be scared of provoking a showdown in such a situation.
Yes, especially as many 'right thinking' women would back those bastards up
Well said. We're well past the ":kind and compassionate " phase. No compromise is what we should be saying now !!
Sometimes, Debbie Hayton speaks a lot of sense. Here is a very good Spectator response to Starmer and Davey's pusillanimous response to Andrew Marr (what happened to the days when it was the Tories who used to squirm on tv?) https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/no-keir-trans-women-like-me-do-not-have-cervixes?utm_medium=email&utm_source=CampaignMonitor_Editorial&utm_campaign=BOCH%20%2010092021%20%20HT+CID_a504642eab28bb6f09c5bcf0bd375cd1
Brilliantly written by Debbie Heyton !! Says it all really. Pity it isn't compulsory reading for all mps ,police ,nhs managers ( who should know better ) etc