“I have to continue because it’s the right thing to do, and if I didn’t do it, I’d go insane with guilt. I don’t want what happened to Jazz Jennings and Keira Bell to happen to a single other child. That’s a crucial fight in which we all deserve a voice. I won’t be driven out of it by people who enjoy causing chaos and pain because they’re unhappy.”
Perfectly put, Graham.
Thank you and Happy New Year! I’ll be proud to keep fighting with you in 2022
Your tweet was twaddle. I'll be commenting on it in a video. You also came up with the idea that I'm a psyop plant, then Kimberly picked it up, then Linehan amplified it. All because NONE of you would answer some simple questions: Who funds Gender Dsyphoria Alliance? Which services do you provide? How do you provide them? Why do you have a pornographer on your leadership board. But I have more questions: why did you remove Buck Angel's picture from the Leadership Board array? Do you approve of her selling a t-shirt with a cartoon rendering of her genitals on the same page that she uses to discuss health care issues for gender-confused children?
Can you explain how you came up with the idea that I'm a TRA plant, when you are, in fact a TRA? What are you trying to distract people from?
Aaron, You are acting as a walking billboard for medical transition. The only difference to Jazz would have been no puberty blockers but still hormones and medical transistion at 18. He would still have been convinced he was a girl. You are trying to have your cake and eat it...while metaphorically aping Sanders by trying to control how much butter Jazz can have on his own pasta. I would be with you re stopping kids taking puberty blockers etc, but I do not see you as an ally. I see you as someone whose congnitive dissonance keeps hitting up against reality and is lashing out at anyone or anything that threatens your own inconsistant views. Graham...expecting Gender Critical Feminists to be Trans' allies is patently ridiculous. Why have they suddenly become your priority? Well we can guess.
Sorry deleting stuff that was duplicated then everything went. 🤔
Just wanted to say I’m completely on GC side. I know what I think. I’m fair at calling out propaganda/ illogical or harmful stuff. I have spoken out at work and probably had a few knives in my back as a result. I have based my response to my employer on what I have learnt from reading and listening to various people including trans identifying people. I read Dennis Kavannas Twitter page before telling them what the law is and read your stuff Aaron’s stuff when replying to articles in a national newspaper. I found that very useful to present a balanced rational argument. I believe everyone should be allowed to speak especially at this stage. To quote you Graham “the door is now open”. Mediators are needed maybe. I’m so sorry to hear you are suffering from anxiety Graham although is it any wonder ? You have done so much to kick the door wide open - and now we all need to walk through it. PSAny chance of Mess We’re In getting on TV? It would be brilliant. Also a comedy show on this whole issue - there is always kindness in your work. Thank you and have a brilliant 2022, you deserve it
We do not expand our understanding of issues--or our understanding of our own perspectives and positions--by listening solely to the people in our ideological bubbles. We increase understanding by listening to new perspectives and to those with whom we disagree.
This year I looked up and listened to every video of yours I could find on YouTube.
I appreciate your willingness to put yourself out in public, to take on criticism from multiple fronts, and to speak from your perspective.
The ‘mad fems,’ as I think of you and your pals are absolutely as bad as the TR loons, so from my perspective you are the problem.
You’re entitled to your ideological point of view, but the monstering of allies is way out of line and has tipped over into obsessive bullying.
I’m in this fight to ensure women’s rights are protected and because I can’t live in a world that has lost touch with reality, but primarily to protect children and that includes protecting them from the damage being done to our cause by the dogmatists within.
If you aren’t comfortable with the middle ground, pragmatism and a pluralistic approach, then set up your own hardline group devoted solely to promoting your ideology and stop coat-tailing on the hard work of other people, it’s dishonest and unethical.
Late yesterday afternoon I had a lengthy conversation with my GP on this very topic. (No, I'm not transitioning!) You, of course, put it all so much better, so I'll be sending this along to her. "First-world problem," indeed. Thanks as always for the clarity and the writing.
AGP men and their apologists, in the end, can do nothing but distort and detract. You just can’t see it, and you never will. And that’s fine. But one thing that would really really help this coalition is for you to stop these pleas/exhortations/whatever. It is genuinely the most harmful thing you can do. I KNOW you think you are trying to help, but it is having the opposite effect. Please hear this. #women.every.single.time. KJK
I simply asked you to listen and reconsider your tactics. Do with it as you will. And I sincerely hope that your Father Ted project goes forward under your name.
Stand up for your friends? OK, cool. What's Arty Morty's real name? Certainly, if you care about this man, you don't want to see him discredited as some kind of odd grifter, who tried to con his way into a political organization using a fake name.
If you're also standing up for your friends, you should be able to answer some basic questions about Gender Dysphoria Alliance: who funds them, which services do they provide, how do they provide them? Why was Buck Angel's picture removed from the 'Leadership Board' array? Do you think that a woman who sells cartoon renderings of her genitals (and various sex aids) on a t-shirt is an appropriate person with whom to discuss the mental health care needs of emotionally disturbed children?
Do right by your buddies and answer these very basic questions.
Is that you asking, Karen? Or a TRA? Because it's hard to tell the difference sometimes. You go after the same targets, with the same venom. If you don't want to pursue a compassionate approach towards people who have been badly hurt by allying with women, then this site is not for you. I'd like to leave it at that, thanks.
Graham you can support friends without making out they are right when they aren't. You got yourself involved in a long standing dispute between two trans activists, one make, one female, then blamed it on Karen Davies.
'We need the quieter voices.' That's a stfu if ever I saw one. Hayton helped usher in school guidelines to let kids use whatever toilet they feel they id with; he is no ally.
I guess I'm one of the sadists that will never play pretend for any mentally ill man or woman with gender dysphoria or middle class malaise - too fucken bad. #NEVERSurrender
It's being 'nice' 'kind' 'reasonable' and moderate that's brought this shit about to pass! Why do you think people were relieved to hear me 'sperg tf out? Because we're sick of tip toeing around the mentally ill. #GlovesOff yes, it's a broad church. Yes, we need every ally. NO, we do not have to fangirl on mentally ill men who are smirking all the while as they get their validation by speaking endlessly about themselves and how THEY see feminism. Bit like yourself, bro. Great work, outstanding, and I take loadsy things under advisement. However, the day I take advice from a man about feminism is the day the sun rises over Western Ireland.
Top o' the year to you! #NEVERKowtow #Itriedaskingnicely
"Hayton helped usher in school guidelines to let kids use whatever toilet they feel they id with" Here's my blockage too. I don't know what he feels about that now- whether he is trying to make amends. I know none of us is a perfect human being but I've seen him dodge this very particular point many times on Mumsnet. So my hackles are up.
On the one hand he writes really well, and he gets listened to. But the gall of it is he writes really well, and years ago, people like him were listened to by the very teaching unions, local education authorities, headteachers that now mean that a little 'gender nonconforming' kid is being allowed to believe he is the opposite sex, other kids are being gaslit and someone like me can have no traction to challenge it. All sewn up.
I respect Graham and really empathise with the anxiety. I have been anxious every day for over two years now since this happened. I've lost friends and the respect of former colleagues. I have thought at times I would be driven mad by the madness of it. It haunts me that teachers are being forced to not only accept that emotional abuse happens to children (that's a normal part of being a teacher, unfortunately) but to collude in it.
DH wants those guidelines changed but has been told of a lack of enthusiasm and urgency on the part of those who can change it. His position is a precarious one because he keeps being reported by TRAs so he has to keep his union onside. I know it’s extremely frustrating for him as his thinking on the matter has developed after being in these trenches for so long.
I didn't know about Hayton's past role in the bathroom guidelines. Thank you for bringing it to my attention. I had only read GC articles by him, so I assumed he was on our side.
This is not about you, Stella, Arty, Debbie or Aaron. This is about safeguarding. The women you describe as 'sadists' are the women who understand safeguarding.
Undoubtedly people are being mean to your mates but that's not the point. For as long as you continue to frame this as people being mean to your mates, and fail to address the safeguarding issues, you are also a safeguarding risk.
Exactly - and your defence of AGPs and fetishists = you're bullying us when called out about it. Move on, bro. Stop greetin' and cryin' about the mean women. We owe men fuckall. And pantysniffing perves and their white knights even less. Debbie is a man in a dress. Performative therapy as he lives his delusion. I will never collude, call me a sadist, I don't give a fuck. LoL this is what uppity women look and sound like. No WONDER they lock us wahine Maori up more than any other group in the world #TruthHurtsBro
Debbie has admitted being wrong about this and has changed practice. I understand Debbie was using either men's or third space toilets at the LGB Alliance conference.
I expected Stella to have a sound understanding of safeguarding, given that she's a therapist who works with extremely vulnerable children and their families. What I heard from her on hatpinwoman's twitter space horrified me.
No sacred castes, Graham. Not priests, not celebrities, not trans, not your mates.
Please watch ClaireOT's videos on safeguarding. Please talk to Safe Schools Alliance.
If we win, we win. The stakes could not be higher, and “losing the nuance” of Debbie Hayton and Artie seems a price well worth paying. (Of course, wish them no personal or professional harm, all the best and so on, but yeah, don’t need them or their opinions as “allies”.)
Sorry, “IF we win … “ sounds like you’re talking about a horse race. Like: IF we win, yay us; but IF we don’t win, oh well there goes £50.
This is not a horse race. This is not a throw at the craps table.
This is an issue for adults, this is dead serious. This requires putting side issues to the side.
I was unaware that Debbie Hayton's transition was so recent, but frankly I don’t gaf. Hayton's wife is a side issue. Buck Angel's T shirts are a side issue. Artie Morty's real name (didn’t know he had one, don’t care) is a side issue, and the “purity” of Posey Parker's feminism is a side issue.
Humans can't change sex so Aaron isn't "a natal woman who has transitioned". She's a woman. A good New Years Resolution would be wean ourselves off kowtowing to these gender ideology nostrums.
But Aaron is. Aaron is a transsexual. A person who uses medical transition to provide palliative relief for gender dysphoria. Aaron is not a sex denialist. Aaron is opposed to gender ideology. Give the Transparency podcast a listen.
IMO gender dysphoria is a good reason to feel sympathy for someone (lots of us who never transition experience it if we define it as a feeling of discomfort with our bodies and/or gender stereotypes). It is not, however, a good argument to distinguish between 'true' transidentifying people and other transidentifying people. It especially does does not matter why some men have taken steps to alter their appearance - they are not women and IMO deserve none of the rights of women.
OTOH, it's really important to understand why so many girls are opting out of womanhood and try to find solutions that don't necessitate changing themselves in any way. I'd say feminism is the answer here. As is understanding when identifying as trans is a reaction to trauma, sex stereotyping, homophobia aor autism.
I thought we were there in the 1980's and 1990's but this is now a big regression.
Happy New Year Graham. Some of the very bravest voices are the ones who are attacked by both sides. Thanks for all you do. Thanks to Debbie, Aaron, Miranda, Stella and everyone who is getting abuse for standing up to this nonsense. We're cutting through. Let's hope for more progress in 2022.
Blimey, just joined on here & if Twitter is heavy weight boxing, this is bare knuckle fighting! I'm not going to comment on this piece because I don't fancy the bloodlust right now but I do hope you have a good new year Graham & that however we achieve it we get women & girls the right to change, love, win, achieve in their own single sex class...without males invading everything..
I don't remember making a comment on which side I fall in this particular thread and I already know all the things you have listed. So...have a good new year Antigone, we fight on.
While I have no doubt that these individuals do wish to protect children, there is no internal consistency in their arguments. It is real trans good, the not real bad. Every dysphoric young person will see themselves as real trans. While same may grow out of it, others will fall for the gender woo and take hormones and have surgeries two or three years later than they otherwise would. What is the difference between ppl like Contrapoints thinking they are real women and these others are troons? None . People are acting as walking billboards for medical transition. Saying it made their lives better despite the horrendous complications...even promoting it in porn and on t-shirts saying Tranny AF. Kids see through this stuff. The focus on here lately seems to be on the promotion of true trans and on attacking women who attack back when they didn't start the fight. Comparing feminists to TRA for criticising more 'nuanced' TRAs is not a great look Graham. You are losing your way. 'Nuanced' seems to be the gaslighter's word of choice lately. Just listen to James Max. If you find yourself using it, you should probably stop and think about why you are using it at all.
How is recognising that gender dysphoria exists and that medical transition offers palliative relief to some adults equivalent to belief in "true trans"?
Notice that I didn't claim medical transition is "necessary".
Gender dysphoria is extreme discomfort with the sexed body (I'd prefer the term sex dysphoria) and can arise for myriad reasons. I agree there is no such thing as a "trans" person.
In children, the diagnosis does not depend upon discomfort with the body at all. In children, that is one of the Diagnostic Criteria, but not a necessary one, it can be diagnosed solely on the basis of gender nonconformity. To explain where I am coming from a bit more: it seems to me that GD has come to mean 'trans' and that has come to involve at least social transitioning (which in children is much more likely to lead to medical transitioning). GD, it seems to me is used as some sort of unassailable concept. It wouldn't exist without societal stereotypes. GIDs should not even exist, IMO, based as it is upon an ideology.
Thank you. Children CAN become distressed by other people's reactions to their non-conformity - they can be bullied, for instance - but I think we have it all backwards at the moment. Instead of tackling the bullying we are labelling the child and they are the ones who are feeling they must change themselves.
Hello Graham ! Happy New Year and thank you for your work.
I was thinking about this issue: how can we deal or treat our "trans allies"?
(I have the same reflexion about men in feminism)
It's problematic for femalist (I'm a member of WHRC in my country) because we know if we open too much the door, it will happen what happenned before: trans zelot will find an other way to destroy our very little and fragile organisation by using the tool of unicorn of Troy.
First came the shy and kind, then more of them, then louder, then those who want to change vocabulary, and rules and make us obey and send is death threat if we refuse to conform.
Now, in our meeting, we have more and more spies who are trying to attend to our zoom meeting. Sometimes, they are dumb enough to let their pronoun when they are pretending to be one of us 🙄🤡.
But.
I don't like to treat people just because of what they are and I'm happy, whatever desagrement we can have about other subject, to hear trans voices like Debbie Hayton, Blaire White, Buck Angel etc. Just because we are agree about the reality of sex. And those voices are to rare to not be listen.
But (again), we can't praise them and let them have the priority in that debate. Because, exactly like "feminist" men, about women's issues, they are more respected and use as tool to erase our voices by others (media etc.)
My solution is: we all have the right and the duty to talk about the subject of reality of sex. AALL of us. But we don't have to work in the same organisation or the same way.
Questions: what's Arty Morty's real name? How did he become the head of LGB Alliance Canada? How does he function in that capacity? Who funds Gender Dysphoria Alliance? Which services do they provide? How do they provide these services? Why was Buck Angels picture removed from the 'Leadership Board' array? How does Buck Angel, a pornographer who sells sex aids on Twitter, provide 'leadership' for this organization? Since you praised Buck Angel as 'grounded', do you approve of her selling a cartoon rendering of her genitals on a t-shirt, using the same Twitter page on which she discusses health care for gender-confused children? How is that representative of her 'groundedness'?
Regarding TRA tactics, are you referring to rape/death/assault threats, doxxing and cancelling? Are you referring to trolling? Aaron Terrell floated the idea that I was a psyop, under the control of Morgane Oger and Olivia Maynard. That is a TRA tactic.The only people who have employed TRA tactics here are you, Aaron Kimberly and Aaron Terrell. I will be sure to continue to discuss these matters honestly and forthrightly.
Er read the room bud. And strawman or not surely these are all questions for Arty Morty, LGB Alliance, GD Alliance, Buck Angel etc. Go ask them and stop trolling randomly.
For what it’s worth regardless of whatever random isolated images are out there, you only have to listen to Buck for 5min to hear that generally speaking he comes across as a grounded individual.
I don’t think there is any doubt from anyone that there are serious mental health issues involved, you don’t chop your cock off on a whim, but I’m glad that you find mental health issues laugh out loud funny…
We all, including Buck, know that his cells are a woman’s and that he can never be a man/male. I don’t think there’s a person who knows of him who thinks he is male so who exactly are you preaching to? He is quite candid about being a transexual man and that he “lives as a man” - not that he is a male! See his pinned tweet.
And if you’re arguing that you can’t be transexual, in old school terms, and still be grounded, then I respectfully disagree. Are people who suffer with depression, or anxiety also not capable of being grounded? Or is it perhaps more nuanced than that?
So....a woman who sells porn on a twitter, where children have access to it is 'grounded'? Grounded in what? In grooming? Why are we supposed to believe that a woman with no educational credentials, health care training, or in mental health background, who is still actively engaged in creating and distributing pornography, is able to provide guidance regarding the mental and physical health of emotionally fragile children? Is a woman wearing a hat that says 'TRANNY AF' really a role model for gender non-conforming girls? Really? What's the message? 'Look, honey! You can do porn just like Buck!' Is that the messaged adults should sent their children?
What's Arty Morty's real name? Doesn't Graham know? Do you? How did he become the leader of an organization if he's operating under a pseudonym?
Random trolling? I'm on the email list....bud.
I've posed these question numerous times and no one's answered them. What are they hiding?
Check out Buck Angel's twitter. There are not 'random, isolated images'. They're for sale on her twitter page where she has pics of her grandchild. Does that strike you as 'grounded'? Or are you simply so deeply in thrall to Graham that you can no longer think critically about anything?
Trolling as in you’re asking the same questions here to multiple people over and over on one thread, it’s beginning to look like trolling.
Don’t know what they’re hiding, but if this turns out to be a murder mystery please let me know.
I don’t tend to judge people on the basis of a small sample of their tweets.
He is grounded in the sense that he is not a queer theory, gender-identity, unicorns will come out of my butt detached from reality trans teenager. You must see that against a tide of abuse from the trans community and against the approval of people like you he has remained steadfast grounded in the reality that is a transexual man, and has no illusions about being male, he knows what he is biologically, and merely tries to ‘live as a man’. This is surely all that’s relevant.
She promotes medical transistion by selling it in the porn industry. Her main claim to fame is the first TiF in porn. What the hell are people missing here?
That was not the question I was responding to. You may be commenting on another post perhaps.
I made a simple response to a criticism of Graham, about Buck being ‘grounded’, which could be interpreted in a number of ways. I am not the defender of all things Buck so do not ask me to be.
I’m not defending anyone, just calling it as I see it. Asking the same questions over and over on one thread is troll-like behaviour even if it doesn’t meet the strict definition of an online troll.
And I’m certainly not abusing anyone… I told the poster to take the questions up with GDA, LGBA, Arty Morty etc. my crime appears to have been that I said that “generally speaking he [Buck] comes across as a grounded individual.” You’re perfectly entitled to interpret as you will and disagree with as you see fit.
It also quite clearly says 18+ on their Twitter bio.
But I’m not here to defend porn, you’re being dishonest Karen. You’re demanding answers because it suits your ideology, you attack transpeople because they’re antithetical to your beliefs, I’d have more respect for you if you were honest.
I’m in this fight because of children, women’s rights and to defend reality and I don’t need to view the world through your ideological lens to do so.
You and your pals have a different agenda, you clearly want ideological supremacy and you don’t care what damage you cause to get there. Stop trying to co-opt other people’s hard work, it’s really shitty behaviour.
That may very well be true, but doesn’t change what I said. That “generally speaking he comes across as a grounded individual.” You’re entitled to disagree, which is fine.
Hi Graham, Thank you for all you have done and do.
Thank you for peaking me years before this came knocking on my door and ripping a hole in my family.
Thank you for 'The Mess We're In" and introducing me to guests like Stella O'Malley, whose tireless, selfless work and the organisations she set up (Genspect, Gender Dysphoria Support Network etc) have saved my sanity and given me and my family a lifeline when there had only been a void and silence.
Thank you for introducing me to the Gender Dysphoria Alliance, without who I would have no idea what my daughter is going to be facing in the coming years and how I can support her through it, if she lets me, or what might have led her to make the choices she has made.
And, seemingly controversially, I thank Buck Angel, because without the candid videos about what it is like to live with a trans mans body and medicalisation, I wouldn't have known to talk to my daughter about vaginal atrophy and taking care of herself, because there was one else talking about it or giving a shit about the real life consequences of these actions.
And while I am being controversial, I also thank you for giving Debbie Hayton space to talk about AGP. While girls and young women have been rocketing through the GI Clinics in recent years, we are now seeing more and more boys and young men doing the same, if we don't try and understand why they are feeling this way about themselves, then we will lose them, we will have failed them and we will have failed the women that they may go on to harm because we closed the door too soon.
I thank you for giving a platform to and celebrating the dozens of strong, powerful, vocal women that are leading us in the fight, those that have stuck their heads above the parapet and lost jobs, income, status, those that are harassed and bullied still, for holding the line.
But mostly I thank you for recognising you have skin in the game too. Many men seem to have taken the opposite approach "nothing to do with us, it's a women's problem", it isn't, and you see that, so thank you.
So here is to 2022, perhaps my anxiety and heart sick pain will allow me more than a few hours sleep at night, maybe I will wake up one day without a giant gnawing knot in my stomach, whatever it brings, I'm glad we are in this fight together, with good people putting their shoulder to the wheel by our sides.
The positivity of Mess has kept me going in what has been a rather bleak year fighting my own little battle with this ideology. Thank you everyone on here for the contribution you make. Happy New Year and here's to Terfing in '22 🥂😘
Oh, shit, and happy New Year!
I don't celebrate the New Year...would you a to hear about this pagan celebration?
What's that you say no :) hehe.
All the best to you though.
Happy New Year1 Things ARE looking up. Thank you for all your hard work
Happy new year Graham. X
“I have to continue because it’s the right thing to do, and if I didn’t do it, I’d go insane with guilt. I don’t want what happened to Jazz Jennings and Keira Bell to happen to a single other child. That’s a crucial fight in which we all deserve a voice. I won’t be driven out of it by people who enjoy causing chaos and pain because they’re unhappy.”
Perfectly put, Graham.
Thank you and Happy New Year! I’ll be proud to keep fighting with you in 2022
Your tweet was twaddle. I'll be commenting on it in a video. You also came up with the idea that I'm a psyop plant, then Kimberly picked it up, then Linehan amplified it. All because NONE of you would answer some simple questions: Who funds Gender Dsyphoria Alliance? Which services do you provide? How do you provide them? Why do you have a pornographer on your leadership board. But I have more questions: why did you remove Buck Angel's picture from the Leadership Board array? Do you approve of her selling a t-shirt with a cartoon rendering of her genitals on the same page that she uses to discuss health care issues for gender-confused children?
Can you explain how you came up with the idea that I'm a TRA plant, when you are, in fact a TRA? What are you trying to distract people from?
Karen, not everyone views the world through your particular feminist lens.
Why do they have to answer to you? It’s none of your business what they do, or how they do it.
Offering advice and hectoring people are very different things.
Why are you trying to control other people?
Nobody owes you a thing ForWomen, you’re an anonymous account on a Substack.
Aaron, You are acting as a walking billboard for medical transition. The only difference to Jazz would have been no puberty blockers but still hormones and medical transistion at 18. He would still have been convinced he was a girl. You are trying to have your cake and eat it...while metaphorically aping Sanders by trying to control how much butter Jazz can have on his own pasta. I would be with you re stopping kids taking puberty blockers etc, but I do not see you as an ally. I see you as someone whose congnitive dissonance keeps hitting up against reality and is lashing out at anyone or anything that threatens your own inconsistant views. Graham...expecting Gender Critical Feminists to be Trans' allies is patently ridiculous. Why have they suddenly become your priority? Well we can guess.
Sorry deleting stuff that was duplicated then everything went. 🤔
Just wanted to say I’m completely on GC side. I know what I think. I’m fair at calling out propaganda/ illogical or harmful stuff. I have spoken out at work and probably had a few knives in my back as a result. I have based my response to my employer on what I have learnt from reading and listening to various people including trans identifying people. I read Dennis Kavannas Twitter page before telling them what the law is and read your stuff Aaron’s stuff when replying to articles in a national newspaper. I found that very useful to present a balanced rational argument. I believe everyone should be allowed to speak especially at this stage. To quote you Graham “the door is now open”. Mediators are needed maybe. I’m so sorry to hear you are suffering from anxiety Graham although is it any wonder ? You have done so much to kick the door wide open - and now we all need to walk through it. PSAny chance of Mess We’re In getting on TV? It would be brilliant. Also a comedy show on this whole issue - there is always kindness in your work. Thank you and have a brilliant 2022, you deserve it
Aaron, reading through some of the replies, genuinely well done. It’s hard to keep going when you’re being attacked from your own side.
Don’t let the bastards grind you down.
We do not expand our understanding of issues--or our understanding of our own perspectives and positions--by listening solely to the people in our ideological bubbles. We increase understanding by listening to new perspectives and to those with whom we disagree.
This year I looked up and listened to every video of yours I could find on YouTube.
I appreciate your willingness to put yourself out in public, to take on criticism from multiple fronts, and to speak from your perspective.
I don’t believe in your ideology ForWomen.
The ‘mad fems,’ as I think of you and your pals are absolutely as bad as the TR loons, so from my perspective you are the problem.
You’re entitled to your ideological point of view, but the monstering of allies is way out of line and has tipped over into obsessive bullying.
I’m in this fight to ensure women’s rights are protected and because I can’t live in a world that has lost touch with reality, but primarily to protect children and that includes protecting them from the damage being done to our cause by the dogmatists within.
If you aren’t comfortable with the middle ground, pragmatism and a pluralistic approach, then set up your own hardline group devoted solely to promoting your ideology and stop coat-tailing on the hard work of other people, it’s dishonest and unethical.
Late yesterday afternoon I had a lengthy conversation with my GP on this very topic. (No, I'm not transitioning!) You, of course, put it all so much better, so I'll be sending this along to her. "First-world problem," indeed. Thanks as always for the clarity and the writing.
Thanks, Fred, lovely to hear from you
AGP men and their apologists, in the end, can do nothing but distort and detract. You just can’t see it, and you never will. And that’s fine. But one thing that would really really help this coalition is for you to stop these pleas/exhortations/whatever. It is genuinely the most harmful thing you can do. I KNOW you think you are trying to help, but it is having the opposite effect. Please hear this. #women.every.single.time. KJK
Thanks, Greensox, but the subscription only gives you your say, not my duty to succumb to it.
I simply asked you to listen and reconsider your tactics. Do with it as you will. And I sincerely hope that your Father Ted project goes forward under your name.
Thank you I do appreciate that. But I have to stand up for my friends. Otherwise I'm no better than the ones who turned their back on me.
Stand up for your friends? OK, cool. What's Arty Morty's real name? Certainly, if you care about this man, you don't want to see him discredited as some kind of odd grifter, who tried to con his way into a political organization using a fake name.
If you're also standing up for your friends, you should be able to answer some basic questions about Gender Dysphoria Alliance: who funds them, which services do they provide, how do they provide them? Why was Buck Angel's picture removed from the 'Leadership Board' array? Do you think that a woman who sells cartoon renderings of her genitals (and various sex aids) on a t-shirt is an appropriate person with whom to discuss the mental health care needs of emotionally disturbed children?
Do right by your buddies and answer these very basic questions.
Is that you asking, Karen? Or a TRA? Because it's hard to tell the difference sometimes. You go after the same targets, with the same venom. If you don't want to pursue a compassionate approach towards people who have been badly hurt by allying with women, then this site is not for you. I'd like to leave it at that, thanks.
Graham you can support friends without making out they are right when they aren't. You got yourself involved in a long standing dispute between two trans activists, one make, one female, then blamed it on Karen Davies.
AGP men are mentally and morally sick. I will never agree with their thinking.
I like Grahams mind...and agree with his thinking (some of the time)!
But like all of us we have freewill we can agree/disagree.
If we can reason and persuade another good but if not keep the faith in your views.
'We need the quieter voices.' That's a stfu if ever I saw one. Hayton helped usher in school guidelines to let kids use whatever toilet they feel they id with; he is no ally.
I guess I'm one of the sadists that will never play pretend for any mentally ill man or woman with gender dysphoria or middle class malaise - too fucken bad. #NEVERSurrender
It's being 'nice' 'kind' 'reasonable' and moderate that's brought this shit about to pass! Why do you think people were relieved to hear me 'sperg tf out? Because we're sick of tip toeing around the mentally ill. #GlovesOff yes, it's a broad church. Yes, we need every ally. NO, we do not have to fangirl on mentally ill men who are smirking all the while as they get their validation by speaking endlessly about themselves and how THEY see feminism. Bit like yourself, bro. Great work, outstanding, and I take loadsy things under advisement. However, the day I take advice from a man about feminism is the day the sun rises over Western Ireland.
Top o' the year to you! #NEVERKowtow #Itriedaskingnicely
"Hayton helped usher in school guidelines to let kids use whatever toilet they feel they id with" Here's my blockage too. I don't know what he feels about that now- whether he is trying to make amends. I know none of us is a perfect human being but I've seen him dodge this very particular point many times on Mumsnet. So my hackles are up.
On the one hand he writes really well, and he gets listened to. But the gall of it is he writes really well, and years ago, people like him were listened to by the very teaching unions, local education authorities, headteachers that now mean that a little 'gender nonconforming' kid is being allowed to believe he is the opposite sex, other kids are being gaslit and someone like me can have no traction to challenge it. All sewn up.
I respect Graham and really empathise with the anxiety. I have been anxious every day for over two years now since this happened. I've lost friends and the respect of former colleagues. I have thought at times I would be driven mad by the madness of it. It haunts me that teachers are being forced to not only accept that emotional abuse happens to children (that's a normal part of being a teacher, unfortunately) but to collude in it.
So forgive me if I do not trust.
*and I forgot, the DfE
DH wants those guidelines changed but has been told of a lack of enthusiasm and urgency on the part of those who can change it. His position is a precarious one because he keeps being reported by TRAs so he has to keep his union onside. I know it’s extremely frustrating for him as his thinking on the matter has developed after being in these trenches for so long.
Interesting information. This heated exchange at first alarmed me but now seems very healthy. I’m learning more every day!
I didn't know about Hayton's past role in the bathroom guidelines. Thank you for bringing it to my attention. I had only read GC articles by him, so I assumed he was on our side.
Happy New Year to you too.
He is.
This is not about you, Stella, Arty, Debbie or Aaron. This is about safeguarding. The women you describe as 'sadists' are the women who understand safeguarding.
Undoubtedly people are being mean to your mates but that's not the point. For as long as you continue to frame this as people being mean to your mates, and fail to address the safeguarding issues, you are also a safeguarding risk.
People who bully safeguarding experts are a safeguarding risk.
Exactly - and your defence of AGPs and fetishists = you're bullying us when called out about it. Move on, bro. Stop greetin' and cryin' about the mean women. We owe men fuckall. And pantysniffing perves and their white knights even less. Debbie is a man in a dress. Performative therapy as he lives his delusion. I will never collude, call me a sadist, I don't give a fuck. LoL this is what uppity women look and sound like. No WONDER they lock us wahine Maori up more than any other group in the world #TruthHurtsBro
The point is Debbie doesn't deny this.
Debbie has admitted being wrong about this and has changed practice. I understand Debbie was using either men's or third space toilets at the LGB Alliance conference.
Which safeguarding experts are you talking about?
I expected Stella to have a sound understanding of safeguarding, given that she's a therapist who works with extremely vulnerable children and their families. What I heard from her on hatpinwoman's twitter space horrified me.
No sacred castes, Graham. Not priests, not celebrities, not trans, not your mates.
Please watch ClaireOT's videos on safeguarding. Please talk to Safe Schools Alliance.
What safeguarding experts? Why are they experts?
If we win, we win. The stakes could not be higher, and “losing the nuance” of Debbie Hayton and Artie seems a price well worth paying. (Of course, wish them no personal or professional harm, all the best and so on, but yeah, don’t need them or their opinions as “allies”.)
Faaaark no. Bye, Felicias! ;)
Disagree. “If we win, we win…”. (?)
Sorry, “IF we win … “ sounds like you’re talking about a horse race. Like: IF we win, yay us; but IF we don’t win, oh well there goes £50.
This is not a horse race. This is not a throw at the craps table.
This is an issue for adults, this is dead serious. This requires putting side issues to the side.
I was unaware that Debbie Hayton's transition was so recent, but frankly I don’t gaf. Hayton's wife is a side issue. Buck Angel's T shirts are a side issue. Artie Morty's real name (didn’t know he had one, don’t care) is a side issue, and the “purity” of Posey Parker's feminism is a side issue.
Humans can't change sex so Aaron isn't "a natal woman who has transitioned". She's a woman. A good New Years Resolution would be wean ourselves off kowtowing to these gender ideology nostrums.
But Aaron is. Aaron is a transsexual. A person who uses medical transition to provide palliative relief for gender dysphoria. Aaron is not a sex denialist. Aaron is opposed to gender ideology. Give the Transparency podcast a listen.
IMO gender dysphoria is a good reason to feel sympathy for someone (lots of us who never transition experience it if we define it as a feeling of discomfort with our bodies and/or gender stereotypes). It is not, however, a good argument to distinguish between 'true' transidentifying people and other transidentifying people. It especially does does not matter why some men have taken steps to alter their appearance - they are not women and IMO deserve none of the rights of women.
OTOH, it's really important to understand why so many girls are opting out of womanhood and try to find solutions that don't necessitate changing themselves in any way. I'd say feminism is the answer here. As is understanding when identifying as trans is a reaction to trauma, sex stereotyping, homophobia aor autism.
I thought we were there in the 1980's and 1990's but this is now a big regression.
Happy New Year Graham. Some of the very bravest voices are the ones who are attacked by both sides. Thanks for all you do. Thanks to Debbie, Aaron, Miranda, Stella and everyone who is getting abuse for standing up to this nonsense. We're cutting through. Let's hope for more progress in 2022.
What attack? Who has attacked this man? Please provide receipts.
Blimey, just joined on here & if Twitter is heavy weight boxing, this is bare knuckle fighting! I'm not going to comment on this piece because I don't fancy the bloodlust right now but I do hope you have a good new year Graham & that however we achieve it we get women & girls the right to change, love, win, achieve in their own single sex class...without males invading everything..
Peace, Love & Confidence to all GCers in 2022.
I don't remember making a comment on which side I fall in this particular thread and I already know all the things you have listed. So...have a good new year Antigone, we fight on.
https://williamaferguson.substack.com/p/women-of-earth
While I have no doubt that these individuals do wish to protect children, there is no internal consistency in their arguments. It is real trans good, the not real bad. Every dysphoric young person will see themselves as real trans. While same may grow out of it, others will fall for the gender woo and take hormones and have surgeries two or three years later than they otherwise would. What is the difference between ppl like Contrapoints thinking they are real women and these others are troons? None . People are acting as walking billboards for medical transition. Saying it made their lives better despite the horrendous complications...even promoting it in porn and on t-shirts saying Tranny AF. Kids see through this stuff. The focus on here lately seems to be on the promotion of true trans and on attacking women who attack back when they didn't start the fight. Comparing feminists to TRA for criticising more 'nuanced' TRAs is not a great look Graham. You are losing your way. 'Nuanced' seems to be the gaslighter's word of choice lately. Just listen to James Max. If you find yourself using it, you should probably stop and think about why you are using it at all.
How is recognising that gender dysphoria exists and that medical transition offers palliative relief to some adults equivalent to belief in "true trans"?
What is gender dysphoria?
And as a corollary, why does it necessitate medical transition?
Notice that I didn't claim medical transition is "necessary".
Gender dysphoria is extreme discomfort with the sexed body (I'd prefer the term sex dysphoria) and can arise for myriad reasons. I agree there is no such thing as a "trans" person.
In children, the diagnosis does not depend upon discomfort with the body at all. In children, that is one of the Diagnostic Criteria, but not a necessary one, it can be diagnosed solely on the basis of gender nonconformity. To explain where I am coming from a bit more: it seems to me that GD has come to mean 'trans' and that has come to involve at least social transitioning (which in children is much more likely to lead to medical transitioning). GD, it seems to me is used as some sort of unassailable concept. It wouldn't exist without societal stereotypes. GIDs should not even exist, IMO, based as it is upon an ideology.
...and it's not coherent. What is called GD can be the result of many different psychosocial factors, which are being ignored.
Agreed
I see what you mean. Giving non conformity a label inevitably pathologies it. I agree with that.
Thank you. Children CAN become distressed by other people's reactions to their non-conformity - they can be bullied, for instance - but I think we have it all backwards at the moment. Instead of tackling the bullying we are labelling the child and they are the ones who are feeling they must change themselves.
Hello Graham ! Happy New Year and thank you for your work.
I was thinking about this issue: how can we deal or treat our "trans allies"?
(I have the same reflexion about men in feminism)
It's problematic for femalist (I'm a member of WHRC in my country) because we know if we open too much the door, it will happen what happenned before: trans zelot will find an other way to destroy our very little and fragile organisation by using the tool of unicorn of Troy.
First came the shy and kind, then more of them, then louder, then those who want to change vocabulary, and rules and make us obey and send is death threat if we refuse to conform.
Now, in our meeting, we have more and more spies who are trying to attend to our zoom meeting. Sometimes, they are dumb enough to let their pronoun when they are pretending to be one of us 🙄🤡.
But.
I don't like to treat people just because of what they are and I'm happy, whatever desagrement we can have about other subject, to hear trans voices like Debbie Hayton, Blaire White, Buck Angel etc. Just because we are agree about the reality of sex. And those voices are to rare to not be listen.
But (again), we can't praise them and let them have the priority in that debate. Because, exactly like "feminist" men, about women's issues, they are more respected and use as tool to erase our voices by others (media etc.)
My solution is: we all have the right and the duty to talk about the subject of reality of sex. AALL of us. But we don't have to work in the same organisation or the same way.
Stay safe. Read you soon.
Thanks for this. x
Questions: what's Arty Morty's real name? How did he become the head of LGB Alliance Canada? How does he function in that capacity? Who funds Gender Dysphoria Alliance? Which services do they provide? How do they provide these services? Why was Buck Angels picture removed from the 'Leadership Board' array? How does Buck Angel, a pornographer who sells sex aids on Twitter, provide 'leadership' for this organization? Since you praised Buck Angel as 'grounded', do you approve of her selling a cartoon rendering of her genitals on a t-shirt, using the same Twitter page on which she discusses health care for gender-confused children? How is that representative of her 'groundedness'?
Regarding TRA tactics, are you referring to rape/death/assault threats, doxxing and cancelling? Are you referring to trolling? Aaron Terrell floated the idea that I was a psyop, under the control of Morgane Oger and Olivia Maynard. That is a TRA tactic.The only people who have employed TRA tactics here are you, Aaron Kimberly and Aaron Terrell. I will be sure to continue to discuss these matters honestly and forthrightly.
Er read the room bud. And strawman or not surely these are all questions for Arty Morty, LGB Alliance, GD Alliance, Buck Angel etc. Go ask them and stop trolling randomly.
For what it’s worth regardless of whatever random isolated images are out there, you only have to listen to Buck for 5min to hear that generally speaking he comes across as a grounded individual.
But Happy new Year to you!
LoL she's a mentally ill woman that's mutilated herself; she can never be a man. Buck is a woman, every cell.
I don’t think there is any doubt from anyone that there are serious mental health issues involved, you don’t chop your cock off on a whim, but I’m glad that you find mental health issues laugh out loud funny…
We all, including Buck, know that his cells are a woman’s and that he can never be a man/male. I don’t think there’s a person who knows of him who thinks he is male so who exactly are you preaching to? He is quite candid about being a transexual man and that he “lives as a man” - not that he is a male! See his pinned tweet.
And if you’re arguing that you can’t be transexual, in old school terms, and still be grounded, then I respectfully disagree. Are people who suffer with depression, or anxiety also not capable of being grounded? Or is it perhaps more nuanced than that?
So....a woman who sells porn on a twitter, where children have access to it is 'grounded'? Grounded in what? In grooming? Why are we supposed to believe that a woman with no educational credentials, health care training, or in mental health background, who is still actively engaged in creating and distributing pornography, is able to provide guidance regarding the mental and physical health of emotionally fragile children? Is a woman wearing a hat that says 'TRANNY AF' really a role model for gender non-conforming girls? Really? What's the message? 'Look, honey! You can do porn just like Buck!' Is that the messaged adults should sent their children?
See my other reply to you above. Grounded in the reality of his biological sex.
You’re going off on one here so I’m not about to get dragged into defending someone else’s every move. You appear to be arguing with yourself.
So what? Most of less disturbed TRAs would say that.
Nuanced is the new gaslighting word of choice, together with complex.
What's Arty Morty's real name? Doesn't Graham know? Do you? How did he become the leader of an organization if he's operating under a pseudonym?
Random trolling? I'm on the email list....bud.
I've posed these question numerous times and no one's answered them. What are they hiding?
Check out Buck Angel's twitter. There are not 'random, isolated images'. They're for sale on her twitter page where she has pics of her grandchild. Does that strike you as 'grounded'? Or are you simply so deeply in thrall to Graham that you can no longer think critically about anything?
Here's a link to 'Buck's Flower' which is available for all to see on Twitter. https://twitter.com/BuckAngel/status/1476559268396421121
Don’t know.
Dont’ care.
No.
Don’t know but good luck with the witch hunt.
Trolling as in you’re asking the same questions here to multiple people over and over on one thread, it’s beginning to look like trolling.
Don’t know what they’re hiding, but if this turns out to be a murder mystery please let me know.
I don’t tend to judge people on the basis of a small sample of their tweets.
He is grounded in the sense that he is not a queer theory, gender-identity, unicorns will come out of my butt detached from reality trans teenager. You must see that against a tide of abuse from the trans community and against the approval of people like you he has remained steadfast grounded in the reality that is a transexual man, and has no illusions about being male, he knows what he is biologically, and merely tries to ‘live as a man’. This is surely all that’s relevant.
She promotes medical transistion by selling it in the porn industry. Her main claim to fame is the first TiF in porn. What the hell are people missing here?
You see no safeguarding issues with having a loud and proud pornographer in a leadership position of an org like GDA?
That was not the question I was responding to. You may be commenting on another post perhaps.
I made a simple response to a criticism of Graham, about Buck being ‘grounded’, which could be interpreted in a number of ways. I am not the defender of all things Buck so do not ask me to be.
You said the only thing that is relevant is that Buck knows she is female. That is not the only thing that is relevant.
It’s almost as though ideologues like Karen are stuck in a feedback loop of their own making, what a truly awful way to view the world.
‘Should have’?
If advice was being offered of how to improve their website, or draw their attention to something, I might accept that she’s trying to help.
But she’s not, she’s accusing them of acting nefariously and endangering children and she’s doing so because of her ideological beliefs.
If by basic stuff you mean bullying, then yes, it’s very obvious to those of us that are not crazed ideologues that this is straight up bullying.
Can you elaborate on that for me? Genuine request.
I’m not defending anyone, just calling it as I see it. Asking the same questions over and over on one thread is troll-like behaviour even if it doesn’t meet the strict definition of an online troll.
And I’m certainly not abusing anyone… I told the poster to take the questions up with GDA, LGBA, Arty Morty etc. my crime appears to have been that I said that “generally speaking he [Buck] comes across as a grounded individual.” You’re perfectly entitled to interpret as you will and disagree with as you see fit.
It also quite clearly says 18+ on their Twitter bio.
But I’m not here to defend porn, you’re being dishonest Karen. You’re demanding answers because it suits your ideology, you attack transpeople because they’re antithetical to your beliefs, I’d have more respect for you if you were honest.
I’m in this fight because of children, women’s rights and to defend reality and I don’t need to view the world through your ideological lens to do so.
You and your pals have a different agenda, you clearly want ideological supremacy and you don’t care what damage you cause to get there. Stop trying to co-opt other people’s hard work, it’s really shitty behaviour.
Well said.
That may very well be true, but doesn’t change what I said. That “generally speaking he comes across as a grounded individual.” You’re entitled to disagree, which is fine.
That is not why I suggested troll like behaviour. Explained elsewhere.
... speaking of hate watch.
Hi Graham, Thank you for all you have done and do.
Thank you for peaking me years before this came knocking on my door and ripping a hole in my family.
Thank you for 'The Mess We're In" and introducing me to guests like Stella O'Malley, whose tireless, selfless work and the organisations she set up (Genspect, Gender Dysphoria Support Network etc) have saved my sanity and given me and my family a lifeline when there had only been a void and silence.
Thank you for introducing me to the Gender Dysphoria Alliance, without who I would have no idea what my daughter is going to be facing in the coming years and how I can support her through it, if she lets me, or what might have led her to make the choices she has made.
And, seemingly controversially, I thank Buck Angel, because without the candid videos about what it is like to live with a trans mans body and medicalisation, I wouldn't have known to talk to my daughter about vaginal atrophy and taking care of herself, because there was one else talking about it or giving a shit about the real life consequences of these actions.
And while I am being controversial, I also thank you for giving Debbie Hayton space to talk about AGP. While girls and young women have been rocketing through the GI Clinics in recent years, we are now seeing more and more boys and young men doing the same, if we don't try and understand why they are feeling this way about themselves, then we will lose them, we will have failed them and we will have failed the women that they may go on to harm because we closed the door too soon.
I thank you for giving a platform to and celebrating the dozens of strong, powerful, vocal women that are leading us in the fight, those that have stuck their heads above the parapet and lost jobs, income, status, those that are harassed and bullied still, for holding the line.
But mostly I thank you for recognising you have skin in the game too. Many men seem to have taken the opposite approach "nothing to do with us, it's a women's problem", it isn't, and you see that, so thank you.
So here is to 2022, perhaps my anxiety and heart sick pain will allow me more than a few hours sleep at night, maybe I will wake up one day without a giant gnawing knot in my stomach, whatever it brings, I'm glad we are in this fight together, with good people putting their shoulder to the wheel by our sides.
The positivity of Mess has kept me going in what has been a rather bleak year fighting my own little battle with this ideology. Thank you everyone on here for the contribution you make. Happy New Year and here's to Terfing in '22 🥂😘
Keep fighting the good fight Graham. We are so thankful and grateful to have you on our side.
So sorry to see what it has cost you. It is appreciated.
Bliadhna mhath ur X