Lee’s recent pandering depends on ignoring stories like these. People are telling me they’re cancelling their tickets to his upcoming shows. If I were them, I would keep the tickets—I’m not going to support the removal of a comedian’s ability to make a living, as Stuart happily does for me—but I would try and use the opportunity to ask him these questions in a venue where he can’t hide.
Not directly related but just for info. I rang HMRC today and was given prerecorded speel about not being abusive to staff blag blah and how they don't tolerate any discrimination against race, disability, gender BUT NO SEX. I have formally complained that I am offended that sex has been replaced by gender etc etc. So I think it would be a good idea to start identifying organisations that are doing this and bombarding them with complaints. They have to respond to every complaint if they are funded by tax payers. This takes up an awful lot of time, there is a word for it but it is effective. Sorry to butt in, just felt it was important.
Good for you. I shall do similarly. I complained to my water board when their response to an issue included pronouns in their response. The email got bounced around ending up with the dept. for wokeness, who responded with the standard shite like " wanting to be welcoming/safe space" etc., but I said it wasn't very welcoming to those with GC views.
I can't help thinking that Martin Lewis has his resolver site where you can pick the organisation you want to complaint about and there will be a template you can use. I think it's really important to try to take the moral high ground.
This is something I want to complain about to Twitter and other companies who protect against abuse based on ‘gender identity’ but not ‘sex’ when misogyny is so overt and widespread... though obviously Twitter would have to shut their whole site down practically.
Is the broader action to push again to get sex/misogyny listed as a hate crime? I’m going to find out how I can get involved with this.
So disappointing. I remember his tweet. I was like 'Ohhh he's gender critical' and then... 'oh'. He, a GNC man, should know better. What is he smoking?
Nah, not buying Lee’s Snowflake merch. Putting money into something that’s like punching myself in the face isn’t what I’m into! I get the point about free speech, but pay Lee to be pawed around by him? No. I’d rather give what limited resources I have to an animal charity or Fair Play for Women. Enough.
It isn't as long as Stu's lists - by some margin I know.
But it is a list of the four ticket numbers that I have for seats at The Lowry in Salford at the end of this month, that I will not be using. I do not care if people think it is childish and self-defeating - especially after paying for them. It may well be. But I care not. That list was pathetic.
If the person with the tickets doesn’t show up and the tickets aren’t returned the seats will be empty. Bloody hell, I’ll even consider refunding the price of the ticket to anyone who boycotts ‘the show’ myself - I’ll consider & then decide I can’t. I don’t have the funds to do that. But I’d support by other means... such as chipping-in to fundraisers etc.
The last thing I want is writers only writing for those who pay them to say what they want them to say. However I felt let down by Lee / Mods / Bragg and not supporting them financially is the one way I can object. Why should I line their pockets when these ‘ Social Justice Warriors’ are directly attacking me / women? Why should I take money out of my own pocket to make myself poorer / boost their egos / support an ideology when it’s oppressive to me & has tactics that In any other circumstance these SJWs would be crying ‘Foul’! ? (IronicalIy I would have called myself a ‘SJW’ a few years ago but now I’m on ‘the wrong side of history’ 🤣. I suppose you gotta laugh.
I can’t help feeling though that giving Lee etc money is like Turkeys voting for Christmas. (Can I get away with that? It’s 12th night, so still technically Christmas!) Seriously - I just can’t bring myself to do it. It’s like being groomed into doing something you don’t want to do but going along with it to ‘fit in’.
Well, he already has my money I guess - or The Lowry does - tickets were paid for two years ago.
I just don't want to sit there and worry about me getting angry. Which I will if he spouts any of this crap - This fight - these issues - it is far too important to be dismissed i a shallow way by someone who hasn't thought it through. Because he cannot have thought it through. For him to announce that 'TWAW' (Which he did at a small launch event, I am told by several people) - means that: a) he cannot have thought it through properly to come to that conclusion or: b) he is going down the liberal-left 'JUST BE NICE' route. Which, having followed him for years must be the correct option of the two. Either is wrong.
There have been several occasions where I disagreed or disliked what Lee said - as you imply - that is fine. As it should be. No problem at all. Challenge me, us the audience.
Again, this is very different indeed than him going on about Brexit, Farage, Diana, immigration etc.
This is personal. So keep the money Stuart, Lowry... I am just not going.
That's annoying. I'm going to see him in Hereford and now I'm tempted to wear a t-shirt that says "If Trans Women are Women Let's See You Shag One," or something similar.
Oooh! Very daring! Let’s hope people have a sense of humour! I’m trying to keep mine but it’s lost up the darkest recess of SL’s backside at the moment & I hope I don’t have to go up there to find it 🤭 I could be lost for a long time😣
I've gotten so disgusted by various groups that I only give money to Save Your Ass and Hooved Animal Humane Society. They are small groups run by women, rescuing animals on a shoestring. No fat cat male sitting up top and taking the money home in bin bags.
What on earth Stewart Lee? Nimko Ali? Christ, he has really lost the plot. People like Bragg, Sleaford Mods, Lee, who ( whom?) I previously respected as individual thinkers, have shown themselves to be sheep being led to the slaughter. Billy also deleted one of my polite tweets asking him to have a look at a link to an article in Filia highlighting some of the women in academia who have been cancelled. Does he read it? Does he think, oh shit, there's something in this? Or, as i fear, does he just think, another crazy woman with some baseless article to ignore. His wife just went through breast cancer treatment. What could be more biologically female than that? I'm a huge music fan and music like his got me through so much pain and loneliness. I really feel so betrayed, like what i believed about these people was just a facade. Thank you Graham for providing an outlet for my frustrations! And sorry for the dump...
You’ve described my feelings exactly. They seem perfectly happy to steam-roller all over women’s rights, freedoms , safety & identity with bulldozer thinking. More than that they’re depicting objectors as right-wing bigots. Any development in society is up for scrutiny. If some of the development is found to impinge on the rights, freedoms & safety etc of others, the right to object is essential, as is the right to object without being bullied, ridiculed, trivialised & demonised.
I can’t believe how these ‘Social Justice Warriors’ fail to see the TACTICS of trans ideologists fall into the above description.
Graham has asked us not to withdraw financial support for Lee, as in effect it’s withdrawing support for the whole purpose of comedy / satire etc. I heard Lee on Saturday Live & couldn’t get over how smug he sounded and how I felt I was being ‘pawed around’, because he’s chosen to look at the Identity Politics issue. It struck me that he’s just making a living out of it. I suppose that’s what comedians do & I shouldn’t expect them to only say things I approve of.
The last thing I want is writers only writing for those who pay them to say what they want them to say. However I felt let down by Lee / Mods / Bragg and not supporting them financially is the one way I can object. Why should I line their pockets when they’re directly attacking me? Why should I take money out of my own pocket to make myself poorer, boost their egos and support an ideology that oppresses me? Giving them my money is like voting for my own oppression / Turkeys voting for Christmas (I think I can just about get away with that one; It’s 12th night today so still Christmas time!) I can’t bring myself to do it. It’s like being groomed into doing something you don’t want to do, but going along with it to ‘fit in’. It’s the stuff of nightmares. NO.
It's also the stuff of weak people who rely on mass public adoration. I understand Graham saying that we should continue to support the art Lee creates to keep comedy as mainstream entertainment (nothing about buying Bragg tickets) as he knows personally the struggles of that industry but I agree wholeheartedly that we have no other recourse, as former fans, to make a stand, especially when we politely ask someone who is so outspoken to look at an article and they delete the link from their page. I've read that Billy's new record is great, but I can't even bring myself to listen to the old ones, which I have memorized by heart.
Great analysis by Jennifer Sieland. If we analyze trans ideology we'll come to the conclusion that it is a right wing ideology, on the very point where Neoliberalism and historical Fascism converge. Let the fact that for some reason liberals and left wing liberals support this ideology not distract us from that point.
It’s super bizarre because I went to a comedy benefit (Stand up to FGM) a few years ago and both Stuart Lee and Bridget Christie were on the bill.
I just don't understand how someone can go from there to four years later putting an anti FGM campaigner ‘in the bin’ because she refuses to capitulate to TRAs given that this is a crime uniquely perpetuated against females, specific to their sex, involving the violent removal of parts of their sexual organs. Is this the actual known limit of cognitive dissonance genderwoo fuckery? These girls/women are literally mutilated, physically damaged, psychologically scarred and sometimes killed because of their sex.
YOU ARE PUTTING A WOMAN WHO CAMPAIGNS AGAINST THIS IN THE FUCKING BIN?!?!?
I’m getting so fucking frustrated to the point of my brain actually exploding by woke-bros who are happy to trample over women and girls rights despite all the evidence around VAWG, even to the point of actual documented literal mutilation. How is this actually possible?
We spend our lives being abused by men/trying to avoid abuse by men/altering our behaviour to protect ourselves from men/trying to overcome our abuse by men. From childhood. I could share examples from age EIGHT and I consider myself to be fortunate compared to a lot of girls/women who grow up in far more vulnerable situations and are subject to far worse abuse. I’ve spent my life doing this, and you think you, a woke bro bloke with absolutely no fucking clue, can tell me what a woman is, what it’s like to be a woman, what our wants and needs are, who should have access to our rights, identity and spaces? Are you fucking kidding?
So woke-bro men who think they can speak out against ‘cis’ women, who speak of ‘cis’ female privilege STFU! Read the fucking statistics! The interviews with thousands of first person experiences of girls and women who have been mutilated/raped/abused/beaten up/violated/harassed by men and affected by men every day of their lives! Immerse yourselves!
Then continue to STFU unless you are going to acknowledge women’s vulnerability and right to and need for safe single sex spaces and just our own spaces to do whatever we want in because we have a right to our own fucking man-free spaces!
Jack Kerouac was an American writer best known for the novel 'On the Road,' which became an American classic, pioneering the Beat Generation in the 1950s.
Jack Kerouac's writing career began in the 1940s but didn't meet with commercial success until 1957 when his book On the Road was published. The book became an American classic that defined the Beat Generation.
Seriously just peoples views …what's the difference?
I'll tell you my response to cancelling Norman Mailer. Barbara Pym, my favorite novelist, was dropped by Jonathan Cape because she wasn't in style. Her gentle, middle-class comedies were no longer hip as declared by someone who was undoubtedly not hip in the least. So like Graham not writing sitcoms, we lost many hilarious novels due to publishing stupidity. Norman Mailer was a misogynist and basically an a##hole.
THIS is a helpful use of your platform and skills, being a GC aggregator of sorts. You bring together and highlight valuable content in a quickly digestible, snappy format that can be easily shared. I hope you feel fortunate to be able to make a tangible contribution to this essential cause. I know I would. I’m also pretty sure my recommendation will elicit a response from you along the lines of “I won’t be silenced by the mob!” (Read: women who disagree with your AGP allyship, we need the male voices, shut up you sadists (??!) rhetoric.) But if you really do, deep down, past your male ego, want to help the cause, you will focus on being one of those QUIET voices you think so essential and let women lead the way. Stop policing our language, stop telling us to be nice, stop calling us names, and stop telling us that its not enough to win this battle for the sake of women and children - that we will have “lost” if some men get their feelings hurt in the process. Go do your quiet work - it’s how you can best make a difference.
"Believing that violence is an innate psychological trait in the male, Mailer insists that repression can only lead to greater dangers." (Kate Millett, Sexual Politics).
No wonder Mailer was a darling of the misogynist New Left.
Mailer was an absolute shit who wrote about characters that killed women. You could even call him misogynist scum.
This doesn’t make a difference to me. As far as I know, there are no scandals about him raping or murdering anyone (as there are about many other male artists). I don’t give a shit what he says, he shouldn’t be censored.
Men who have raped and murdered shouldn’t be censored either. I just become deeply disappointed and disillusioned with them.
For example, my favorite movie used to be Chinatown. It actually made perfect sense to me later, during my research, when I read that men who rape women understand them better. They study their victims, they understand what makes them vulnerable, why they’re drawn to them. They understand how men hurt women in this society. This was an “aha” moment when reading about it- why these guys are so good at grooming. Many of these men suffer from the knowledge of what they’ve done, and keep doing it. I’m not excusing them; they are entrenched in a sickness which makes them a danger to society. (And of course there are others who simply have the high cognitive but low affective empathy which is the hallmark of a condition like narcissism or psychopathy. They understand their victims, the better to manipulate them, but have no conscience). Some of the former (not the latter) type of abuser/sexual narcissist can make incredible art which actually condemns sexual violence and showcases the woman’s perspective. Chinatown was one such movie, I thought. Imagine my horror not only at Polanksi’s awful rape of a 13-year-old, but at his statement to a judge that all men want to have sex with young girls, and his continuation of this practice in France, long after the Hollywood establishment had forgiven him.
Does it mean we should cancel “Chinatown?” No. If we canceled all the work of men who raped (and even murderer) women, there would go a lot of classic works. Should we make it clear what the creators of these works did, and make sure it’s a part of the analysis of the topic at hand (especially when it concerns plots or artwork showcasing violence against women)? Yes.
I am anti-cancellation across the board.
This also leads to someone like JK Rowling being canceled, because women’s thought crimes (women saying no, or women poking fun at men) is always as bad or worse than men’s actual crimes against women. That’s part of what a hierarchy is. We can’t set this precedent and allow female authors to be hurt for not matching the standards of purity and self-sacrifice required of women.
All that said, I don’t think Mailer is that great of a writer, either. Men who love Mailed, Bukowski, and to some extent Hemingway and Chuck Palahniuk, and I suppose also their counterparts in other artistic mediums, are generally best avoided (if nothing else but for their immature and sexist views of women, and their grievances against women) in my view. That doesn’t mean I’d ever call for these artists’ cancellation. That truly is a slippery slope, and not in the logical fallacy sense.
And as I said, these men’s account of their own views, whether toxic or sympathetic toward their female victims, are important in the patchwork anthropological account of human societies. The important thing is that the creators’ flaws are acknowledged and they are viewed in context.
I’m not sure that a publisher deciding not to go ahead with a commemorative essay collection amounts to censorship, or cancellation. Mailer’s writings are still widely available (though no longer widely read), and the collection has been taken up by another publisher. Even the claim that Random House pulled out because a junior staffer objected to the title of one of the essays turns out to be false. More important, though, is why American publishers would want to celebrate the centenary of such a misogynist with a new collection of his already published essays, when their record in publishing or republishing feminist classics is so poor.
Not directly related but just for info. I rang HMRC today and was given prerecorded speel about not being abusive to staff blag blah and how they don't tolerate any discrimination against race, disability, gender BUT NO SEX. I have formally complained that I am offended that sex has been replaced by gender etc etc. So I think it would be a good idea to start identifying organisations that are doing this and bombarding them with complaints. They have to respond to every complaint if they are funded by tax payers. This takes up an awful lot of time, there is a word for it but it is effective. Sorry to butt in, just felt it was important.
Good for you. I shall do similarly. I complained to my water board when their response to an issue included pronouns in their response. The email got bounced around ending up with the dept. for wokeness, who responded with the standard shite like " wanting to be welcoming/safe space" etc., but I said it wasn't very welcoming to those with GC views.
I can't help thinking that Martin Lewis has his resolver site where you can pick the organisation you want to complaint about and there will be a template you can use. I think it's really important to try to take the moral high ground.
Nectar have me down as Mx
It is important. When was the last time you booked an airline ticket that asked for you sex, not gender?
This is something I want to complain about to Twitter and other companies who protect against abuse based on ‘gender identity’ but not ‘sex’ when misogyny is so overt and widespread... though obviously Twitter would have to shut their whole site down practically.
Is the broader action to push again to get sex/misogyny listed as a hate crime? I’m going to find out how I can get involved with this.
Sex matters are pretty good
Unfortunately mysogeny as a crime has been thrown under a bus
Boy George capitulated two years ago when he was mocking the Pronoun Wankers as "attention seeking" then quickly reversed himself.
It was when I played him back his own Tweet he blocked me.
So disappointing. I remember his tweet. I was like 'Ohhh he's gender critical' and then... 'oh'. He, a GNC man, should know better. What is he smoking?
Drugs.
A preschool teacher teaching the kids about queerness and sexuality - makes my blood boil.
And she's so CREEPY. I guess creepy is in these days.
Nah, not buying Lee’s Snowflake merch. Putting money into something that’s like punching myself in the face isn’t what I’m into! I get the point about free speech, but pay Lee to be pawed around by him? No. I’d rather give what limited resources I have to an animal charity or Fair Play for Women. Enough.
Actually, I have a list of my own for 'Stu'.
Here it is:
A17
A18
A19
A20.
It isn't as long as Stu's lists - by some margin I know.
But it is a list of the four ticket numbers that I have for seats at The Lowry in Salford at the end of this month, that I will not be using. I do not care if people think it is childish and self-defeating - especially after paying for them. It may well be. But I care not. That list was pathetic.
Empty seats are a great way to protest.
I know but I worry people would move to fill them. Like we did the empty seats at panto recently (half the seats were empty because of Covid I guess).
I will not worry one iota from 52 miles away I assure you.
If the person with the tickets doesn’t show up and the tickets aren’t returned the seats will be empty. Bloody hell, I’ll even consider refunding the price of the ticket to anyone who boycotts ‘the show’ myself - I’ll consider & then decide I can’t. I don’t have the funds to do that. But I’d support by other means... such as chipping-in to fundraisers etc.
The last thing I want is writers only writing for those who pay them to say what they want them to say. However I felt let down by Lee / Mods / Bragg and not supporting them financially is the one way I can object. Why should I line their pockets when these ‘ Social Justice Warriors’ are directly attacking me / women? Why should I take money out of my own pocket to make myself poorer / boost their egos / support an ideology when it’s oppressive to me & has tactics that In any other circumstance these SJWs would be crying ‘Foul’! ? (IronicalIy I would have called myself a ‘SJW’ a few years ago but now I’m on ‘the wrong side of history’ 🤣. I suppose you gotta laugh.
I can’t help feeling though that giving Lee etc money is like Turkeys voting for Christmas. (Can I get away with that? It’s 12th night, so still technically Christmas!) Seriously - I just can’t bring myself to do it. It’s like being groomed into doing something you don’t want to do but going along with it to ‘fit in’.
Well, he already has my money I guess - or The Lowry does - tickets were paid for two years ago.
I just don't want to sit there and worry about me getting angry. Which I will if he spouts any of this crap - This fight - these issues - it is far too important to be dismissed i a shallow way by someone who hasn't thought it through. Because he cannot have thought it through. For him to announce that 'TWAW' (Which he did at a small launch event, I am told by several people) - means that: a) he cannot have thought it through properly to come to that conclusion or: b) he is going down the liberal-left 'JUST BE NICE' route. Which, having followed him for years must be the correct option of the two. Either is wrong.
There have been several occasions where I disagreed or disliked what Lee said - as you imply - that is fine. As it should be. No problem at all. Challenge me, us the audience.
Again, this is very different indeed than him going on about Brexit, Farage, Diana, immigration etc.
This is personal. So keep the money Stuart, Lowry... I am just not going.
That's annoying. I'm going to see him in Hereford and now I'm tempted to wear a t-shirt that says "If Trans Women are Women Let's See You Shag One," or something similar.
Go for it. I will even do the artwork free for you!
Oooh! Very daring! Let’s hope people have a sense of humour! I’m trying to keep mine but it’s lost up the darkest recess of SL’s backside at the moment & I hope I don’t have to go up there to find it 🤭 I could be lost for a long time😣
He put someone's phone in his pants last tour as punishment for taking a picture so you may end up getting shoved up his fundament.
👏👏👏
Looks like front row. So a big ol' toothless gap in the gurning grin of his admirers. Nice.
Then found myself picturing a moley special, spread across front row seats, specially for 'Stu'...
Looking forward to those gappy teeth... ! 😂
It's sad he can't see how TRAs act just like the zealots who tried to cancel Jerry Springer: The Opera.
Yes absolutely. He should be standing outside his own show and mocking from the side.
Or - go and wear something terfy?
Yes! Perhaps Spreadshopshit will print something for me.. oh, wait...
Seriously - A 104 mile round trip. I think not!
I've gotten so disgusted by various groups that I only give money to Save Your Ass and Hooved Animal Humane Society. They are small groups run by women, rescuing animals on a shoestring. No fat cat male sitting up top and taking the money home in bin bags.
Love Gillian Phillip! Lovely lady. So glad she’s still fighting this. Go Gill!
Me too! Impressive woman!
Boy George has a nasty side too. All of those men listed above have bigotry in their bones.
Doesn't he have some sort of history of violent outbursts?
He was found guilty of handcuffing a male model and beating him with a chain. I imagine it wasn’t a one-off act of empowerment.
Why do I just want to spend the whole time I'm reading this shit going EEEEWWWWWWWWW.
Even if that pink haired lass wasn't grooming kids with "queerness" I wouldn't want her teaching my kids. Tik Tok teachers, whatever the fuck next?
Exactly. Just imagine the practical exam (and don't ask about the oral).
What on earth Stewart Lee? Nimko Ali? Christ, he has really lost the plot. People like Bragg, Sleaford Mods, Lee, who ( whom?) I previously respected as individual thinkers, have shown themselves to be sheep being led to the slaughter. Billy also deleted one of my polite tweets asking him to have a look at a link to an article in Filia highlighting some of the women in academia who have been cancelled. Does he read it? Does he think, oh shit, there's something in this? Or, as i fear, does he just think, another crazy woman with some baseless article to ignore. His wife just went through breast cancer treatment. What could be more biologically female than that? I'm a huge music fan and music like his got me through so much pain and loneliness. I really feel so betrayed, like what i believed about these people was just a facade. Thank you Graham for providing an outlet for my frustrations! And sorry for the dump...
You’ve described my feelings exactly. They seem perfectly happy to steam-roller all over women’s rights, freedoms , safety & identity with bulldozer thinking. More than that they’re depicting objectors as right-wing bigots. Any development in society is up for scrutiny. If some of the development is found to impinge on the rights, freedoms & safety etc of others, the right to object is essential, as is the right to object without being bullied, ridiculed, trivialised & demonised.
I can’t believe how these ‘Social Justice Warriors’ fail to see the TACTICS of trans ideologists fall into the above description.
Graham has asked us not to withdraw financial support for Lee, as in effect it’s withdrawing support for the whole purpose of comedy / satire etc. I heard Lee on Saturday Live & couldn’t get over how smug he sounded and how I felt I was being ‘pawed around’, because he’s chosen to look at the Identity Politics issue. It struck me that he’s just making a living out of it. I suppose that’s what comedians do & I shouldn’t expect them to only say things I approve of.
The last thing I want is writers only writing for those who pay them to say what they want them to say. However I felt let down by Lee / Mods / Bragg and not supporting them financially is the one way I can object. Why should I line their pockets when they’re directly attacking me? Why should I take money out of my own pocket to make myself poorer, boost their egos and support an ideology that oppresses me? Giving them my money is like voting for my own oppression / Turkeys voting for Christmas (I think I can just about get away with that one; It’s 12th night today so still Christmas time!) I can’t bring myself to do it. It’s like being groomed into doing something you don’t want to do, but going along with it to ‘fit in’. It’s the stuff of nightmares. NO.
It's also the stuff of weak people who rely on mass public adoration. I understand Graham saying that we should continue to support the art Lee creates to keep comedy as mainstream entertainment (nothing about buying Bragg tickets) as he knows personally the struggles of that industry but I agree wholeheartedly that we have no other recourse, as former fans, to make a stand, especially when we politely ask someone who is so outspoken to look at an article and they delete the link from their page. I've read that Billy's new record is great, but I can't even bring myself to listen to the old ones, which I have memorized by heart.
Never give money to someone whose views are hateful! Never! One power we women possess is our consumer power -- USE IT!
Great analysis by Jennifer Sieland. If we analyze trans ideology we'll come to the conclusion that it is a right wing ideology, on the very point where Neoliberalism and historical Fascism converge. Let the fact that for some reason liberals and left wing liberals support this ideology not distract us from that point.
So many replies with George O'Dowd's misdemeanour.
Boy George gets 15 months for falsely imprisoning male escort
This article is more than 12 years old
Singer accused victim of hacking into his computer before threatening him with whips and sex toys
https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2009/jan/16/boy-george-sentenced-handcuffing-male-escort
It’s super bizarre because I went to a comedy benefit (Stand up to FGM) a few years ago and both Stuart Lee and Bridget Christie were on the bill.
I just don't understand how someone can go from there to four years later putting an anti FGM campaigner ‘in the bin’ because she refuses to capitulate to TRAs given that this is a crime uniquely perpetuated against females, specific to their sex, involving the violent removal of parts of their sexual organs. Is this the actual known limit of cognitive dissonance genderwoo fuckery? These girls/women are literally mutilated, physically damaged, psychologically scarred and sometimes killed because of their sex.
YOU ARE PUTTING A WOMAN WHO CAMPAIGNS AGAINST THIS IN THE FUCKING BIN?!?!?
I’m getting so fucking frustrated to the point of my brain actually exploding by woke-bros who are happy to trample over women and girls rights despite all the evidence around VAWG, even to the point of actual documented literal mutilation. How is this actually possible?
We spend our lives being abused by men/trying to avoid abuse by men/altering our behaviour to protect ourselves from men/trying to overcome our abuse by men. From childhood. I could share examples from age EIGHT and I consider myself to be fortunate compared to a lot of girls/women who grow up in far more vulnerable situations and are subject to far worse abuse. I’ve spent my life doing this, and you think you, a woke bro bloke with absolutely no fucking clue, can tell me what a woman is, what it’s like to be a woman, what our wants and needs are, who should have access to our rights, identity and spaces? Are you fucking kidding?
So woke-bro men who think they can speak out against ‘cis’ women, who speak of ‘cis’ female privilege STFU! Read the fucking statistics! The interviews with thousands of first person experiences of girls and women who have been mutilated/raped/abused/beaten up/violated/harassed by men and affected by men every day of their lives! Immerse yourselves!
Then continue to STFU unless you are going to acknowledge women’s vulnerability and right to and need for safe single sex spaces and just our own spaces to do whatever we want in because we have a right to our own fucking man-free spaces!
THE END!
The White Negro (Fall 1957)
Norman Mailer’s inflammatory 1957 essay on the original “hipsters.”
https://www.dissentmagazine.org/online_articles/the-white-negro-fall-1957
or
Jack Kerouac was an American writer best known for the novel 'On the Road,' which became an American classic, pioneering the Beat Generation in the 1950s.
Jack Kerouac's writing career began in the 1940s but didn't meet with commercial success until 1957 when his book On the Road was published. The book became an American classic that defined the Beat Generation.
Seriously just peoples views …what's the difference?
I'll tell you my response to cancelling Norman Mailer. Barbara Pym, my favorite novelist, was dropped by Jonathan Cape because she wasn't in style. Her gentle, middle-class comedies were no longer hip as declared by someone who was undoubtedly not hip in the least. So like Graham not writing sitcoms, we lost many hilarious novels due to publishing stupidity. Norman Mailer was a misogynist and basically an a##hole.
THIS is a helpful use of your platform and skills, being a GC aggregator of sorts. You bring together and highlight valuable content in a quickly digestible, snappy format that can be easily shared. I hope you feel fortunate to be able to make a tangible contribution to this essential cause. I know I would. I’m also pretty sure my recommendation will elicit a response from you along the lines of “I won’t be silenced by the mob!” (Read: women who disagree with your AGP allyship, we need the male voices, shut up you sadists (??!) rhetoric.) But if you really do, deep down, past your male ego, want to help the cause, you will focus on being one of those QUIET voices you think so essential and let women lead the way. Stop policing our language, stop telling us to be nice, stop calling us names, and stop telling us that its not enough to win this battle for the sake of women and children - that we will have “lost” if some men get their feelings hurt in the process. Go do your quiet work - it’s how you can best make a difference.
"Believing that violence is an innate psychological trait in the male, Mailer insists that repression can only lead to greater dangers." (Kate Millett, Sexual Politics).
No wonder Mailer was a darling of the misogynist New Left.
Mailer was an absolute shit who wrote about characters that killed women. You could even call him misogynist scum.
This doesn’t make a difference to me. As far as I know, there are no scandals about him raping or murdering anyone (as there are about many other male artists). I don’t give a shit what he says, he shouldn’t be censored.
Men who have raped and murdered shouldn’t be censored either. I just become deeply disappointed and disillusioned with them.
For example, my favorite movie used to be Chinatown. It actually made perfect sense to me later, during my research, when I read that men who rape women understand them better. They study their victims, they understand what makes them vulnerable, why they’re drawn to them. They understand how men hurt women in this society. This was an “aha” moment when reading about it- why these guys are so good at grooming. Many of these men suffer from the knowledge of what they’ve done, and keep doing it. I’m not excusing them; they are entrenched in a sickness which makes them a danger to society. (And of course there are others who simply have the high cognitive but low affective empathy which is the hallmark of a condition like narcissism or psychopathy. They understand their victims, the better to manipulate them, but have no conscience). Some of the former (not the latter) type of abuser/sexual narcissist can make incredible art which actually condemns sexual violence and showcases the woman’s perspective. Chinatown was one such movie, I thought. Imagine my horror not only at Polanksi’s awful rape of a 13-year-old, but at his statement to a judge that all men want to have sex with young girls, and his continuation of this practice in France, long after the Hollywood establishment had forgiven him.
Does it mean we should cancel “Chinatown?” No. If we canceled all the work of men who raped (and even murderer) women, there would go a lot of classic works. Should we make it clear what the creators of these works did, and make sure it’s a part of the analysis of the topic at hand (especially when it concerns plots or artwork showcasing violence against women)? Yes.
I am anti-cancellation across the board.
This also leads to someone like JK Rowling being canceled, because women’s thought crimes (women saying no, or women poking fun at men) is always as bad or worse than men’s actual crimes against women. That’s part of what a hierarchy is. We can’t set this precedent and allow female authors to be hurt for not matching the standards of purity and self-sacrifice required of women.
All that said, I don’t think Mailer is that great of a writer, either. Men who love Mailed, Bukowski, and to some extent Hemingway and Chuck Palahniuk, and I suppose also their counterparts in other artistic mediums, are generally best avoided (if nothing else but for their immature and sexist views of women, and their grievances against women) in my view. That doesn’t mean I’d ever call for these artists’ cancellation. That truly is a slippery slope, and not in the logical fallacy sense.
And as I said, these men’s account of their own views, whether toxic or sympathetic toward their female victims, are important in the patchwork anthropological account of human societies. The important thing is that the creators’ flaws are acknowledged and they are viewed in context.
I’m not sure that a publisher deciding not to go ahead with a commemorative essay collection amounts to censorship, or cancellation. Mailer’s writings are still widely available (though no longer widely read), and the collection has been taken up by another publisher. Even the claim that Random House pulled out because a junior staffer objected to the title of one of the essays turns out to be false. More important, though, is why American publishers would want to celebrate the centenary of such a misogynist with a new collection of his already published essays, when their record in publishing or republishing feminist classics is so poor.
By the way, Mailer's writings got a murderer released from prison; murderer got out and murdered again. Not quite Sartre and Jean Genet.
The only thing I know of Mailer is the frequency with which Dworkin would bring him up as an example of male thinking (and not in a positive way).
Nimco is friends with Carrie Antoinette and refuses to condemn Boris Johnson’s use of the homophobic term “bum boys” https://twitter.com/owenjones84/status/1335174509171781633?s=21
Interesting. She does clearly condemn the term though.
Is Talcum X a little dense? He keeps asking the same question over and over.
He is little AND dense.