Bloody hell, anyone who can get all the way through Lee's "EVERYBODY LISTEN TO ME" list has way more patience than I can boast. What an unconscionable bore.
Graham, I've always thought that you have more talent just in your fingernails alone than Lee could ever dream of possessing. And the same goes for courage, integrity and humanity, as is now perfectly clear.
You're the very best of men & worth a million Lees.
I know! Who in god's name is interested in what brand of toilet paper he uses? (I don't know if he listed that, but he might as well have since he listed every thought he's had in his life.)
Oh, Graham, it breaks my heart that, people who were once your friends, would rather save their own skin, by publicly, betraying you..... yet another cowardly, Judas.
I've been thinking about you, a lot, lately, I know that you have been criticised by so-called allies.
You are such a good, kind man.
You don't deserve all the 'purity lectures'
Your loyalty, to your dear friend Arty, has been admiral and heart-warming.
None of us is perfect. We can only do our best.
You have done more than most people, at great personal cost.
I'd just like to thank you, from the bottom of my heart for everything you do for women, children, and Gay People.
The time is coming for those who have been complicit in this scandal,
to reap what they have sown. People won't forget who they are, and what they have done.
And we will never forget how much you have done. You are a hero.
I'm so sorry that you have been let down, and hurt, by so many weak people.
Agree every word Ellie. in the list of what he's done for women, children and homosexuals I would add trans people who are also being damaged by the madness.
I wondered to. I am not a stupid person, but at this point SL has lost me on whether he is playing a character or not. Particularly in his writing - it's so opaque as to be almost incomprehensible.
He lives in a very right-on borough. He's left wing. He has children that go to a local school that has a handful of girls in each year group that identify as 'trans' or non-binary. He's had to make a choice to continue to be the darling of people like him and not piss off his kids or show some genuine independent thought. He has chosen the former.
What is so very sad is his willingness to trash you in the process. I am so sorry Graham. People who I trusted to just THINK have disappointed me in their tribalism.
I went to see him a couple of years ago and he said some lazy shit about Mumsnet which made me think that scratch another right-on man and find a misogynist, so it doesn't surprise me.
I think you raise a significant point. We saw how Jonathan Ross was reigned-in by his kid(s). Frankie Boyle has likely been neutered by his kids. Seems like Stewart is as well.
It's fucking pathetic.
Imagine having do little standing in your own house that your kids are dictating to you.
Any efforts to impress teenagers are ultimately futile, as any fool knows.
But it's pitiful for any adults to be led by the nose by their kids. No doubt it's a 'progressive area/school' issue, as this bollocks wouldn't hold water in a working class environment.
I have a theory on this. The seeds of being intimidated by your teens have been there in the permissive middle class parenting of the last decade or more. I saw it in the Primary School in which I worked. This was was a backlash against the authoritarian way we were parented. I hope a middle ground of authoritative parenting will be found.
I have teens. Luckily (so far) they seem to be eye-rolling in the main at the Trans/NB fad.
Since they were babies I noticed the prevailing trend in parenting. The idea that was the child was the centre of all things. Their likes and wants were the Sun in solar system of family harmony. The idea was they should never EVER be upset. This is where we end up - the overgrown toddlers still telling their parents how the family will work, think and act. Parents are frozen in fear of it.
Luckily, my 14 yr old son got his first mega angry rant from me when he dared parrot to me that JKR was a transphobe. He didn’t know what hit him. I asked him to come back with evidence. He’s never mentioned it since.
This is a modern day problem of our own making though. Schools say they need to teach resilience on one hand and then tell children any hurt feelings are actual violence on the other. It’s an over-correction from being blind to the child abuses of the past.
I am a Newbie so do forgive me if I am reading the room incorrectly. My family is multi-racial. Pandering to teens is an overwhelmingly white middle class trait, in my lived experience (I am the white middle class one in my family) The non white sector of the family does not pander to teens, pays respect to elders and ancestors and largely keeps their nose out of the personal life of their children, the older generations once they have worked out which ones are going to be the doctor/lawyer/accountant HALF JOKING. The non white culture in my family is broadly the most successful immigrant group anywhere in the world as they focus on the health and wealth of the family unit, whatever it takes. I am not saying their track record is perfect by any means at all, when it comes to progressiveness and human rights, but the focus of the family energy, resources and support system is not distracted by this kind of bollocks.
Again, if I have misread the room, I will get my coat and do tell me to delete this thread and I will try and be more measured in future
I don't think it's as easy as you imply. My kids (ranging in age from 18 to 28) are fully on the TWAW bandwagon. I am certainly not trying to 'impress' them. I have tried several times to talk to them about it, as gently as possible. The result - on their part - has been tears, disappointment, shock. It's as though I suggested killing babies or dismembering puppies. I think more work needs to be done in this area - how to share gender critical views with one's teen/adult children without them shutting down. I would be interested to hear from anyone who has had success in this area.
The high level of emotion is good information about their cognitive dissonance. You are fighting the might of TikTok, Instagram, their friends and what counts as being a "nice person". I'd solely focus on their behaviour towards you if it arises again and they are rude, dismissive or name-calling. No personal experience as my two (18 and 21) seem to have negotiated this and the tricky position it puts them in with friends. Older one thinks it's all nonsense and doesn't much care what others think about him. Youngest one says it's girls who seems to be mostly on the TWAW and I think that speaks to how successfully they their natural social agreeableness has been manipulated.
Thanks. Just to say, they have not been rude, dismissive or name-calling. They've been upset, hurt and tearful which is harder to write off. Will check out the link.
Tears can be nothing but manipulation to make one shut up. And if they don't learn how to deal with being upset at this age, how are they going to cope in future?
Tell them the details of body mutilation; I have found no trans supporters who know anything about this and they're usually not willing to learn. Teenagers seem to be extremely sensitive hearing any physiological details, and I would start with chopping off the penis and testicles. If they're so supportive of this crap, they should be interested to hear the details.
I can't work out what's the worse thing to say about lefty/progressive celebs who side with the TWAW side. That they've engaged in motivated reasoning to reach the conclusion that's most convenient for them or that they're completely sincere and would've supported this idea even if it wasn't popular in there social circles.
Jeez! Another one? Fucking shit-bag. Trying to curry favour with a bunch of psychos who'll turn on him in a flash (look at Janey Godley!). We won't fucking forget you, mate. Back-stabbing sychophant. Not you or any of your lot - pissing on women's rights, or holding the dicks for those who do.
I am very sorry you have to experience so much betrayal und back stabbing. The struggle around this dangerous ideology seems to show us the spineless, the opportunists, the traitors and, perhaps most of all, the idiots. In those who embrace or passively support trans ideology it reliably brings out the worst. But, to take a more positive look, what remains are the true friends. Always keep that in mind. For your own sake. And for the sake of those who you fight for.
Yes, Graham is younger than I am, but I'm surprised it took this long for him to realize how most people have no idea of what being a friend means. I started learning this in my twenties when a "friend" I was being supportive of (in a group to which we both belonged) left me in the lurch after complaining to me about her treatment at the hands of the group. I began to learn to not bother defending people and to look at my "friends" with a skeptical eye.
"Trans allies" are cowards who prioritize being liked and accepted by the currently dominant culture over the safety and rights of women and children. No surprise that he wouldn't say a word to you face to face, or even via email. Doing so would take courage and conviction, which he completely lacks.
This is a great rebuttal, but please don't let this plonker take up one more second in your head rent-free. Dust off your hands and move on.
I really like this, " Dust off your hands and move on". It aims up how I've started to feel. I'm sick of being filled with impotent rage, trying to unpick why people like Stewart Lee do what they do. They go with the safe flow, they back up the bullies so the kind of light they want to avoid isn't shone on them.
They might advance their careers, but even if they don't, they won't disadvantage themselves. Perhaps there's some mileage to be got out of being subversive and challenging prejudice and hate, etc, whilst in fact being compliant, obsequious even, and establishing a basis for prejudice and the most vicious hatred. And there's misogyny, of course, that's a real pull for some.
I don't give a damn about them, obviously, it would be great if they could change and stop being shit, but if that's not going to happen, leave it. It's more important to keep drawing attention to what is happening, opposing it and trying to offer support to the women and children being harmed, threatened and exploited.
Graham, you are absolutely bloody brilliant. You somehow take all the thoughts I've got buzzing incoherently round my head, and turn them into articulate, thoughtful and witty articles.
I was a big fan of his too, but when you support misogynists like OJ and "Ask" Shakar over people like Nimco Ali, there is no joke that will make that humorous. Feel a bit sad about this tbh, I thought he was a better man.
With Nimco, possibly because she is mercilessly harassed by "Trans Activists" and Men's Rights Activists. The former because she refuses to stop using the word "Female" in "Female Genital Mutilation" (it's transphobic, of course) and the latter because she refuses to divert her time into campaigning against penile circumcision, which MRAs argue is "just as bad" as Female Genital Mutilation.
He doesn't need to, he's a rich white man, this will run off him as he has placed he allegiance with the Guardianista and the rest of the North London Village idiots, they always support their own.
This guy need to do some serious research before spouting poison towards a hero of a man who is doing his absolute best to shed light on this toxic issue, ultimately to protect women and children. It is shameful
Bloody hell, anyone who can get all the way through Lee's "EVERYBODY LISTEN TO ME" list has way more patience than I can boast. What an unconscionable bore.
Graham, I've always thought that you have more talent just in your fingernails alone than Lee could ever dream of possessing. And the same goes for courage, integrity and humanity, as is now perfectly clear.
You're the very best of men & worth a million Lees.
I know! Who in god's name is interested in what brand of toilet paper he uses? (I don't know if he listed that, but he might as well have since he listed every thought he's had in his life.)
"My cultural year..."?? Oh mate. He must think he's Jonathan Miller.
Very well said! I fully concur.
Oh, Graham, it breaks my heart that, people who were once your friends, would rather save their own skin, by publicly, betraying you..... yet another cowardly, Judas.
I've been thinking about you, a lot, lately, I know that you have been criticised by so-called allies.
You are such a good, kind man.
You don't deserve all the 'purity lectures'
Your loyalty, to your dear friend Arty, has been admiral and heart-warming.
None of us is perfect. We can only do our best.
You have done more than most people, at great personal cost.
I'd just like to thank you, from the bottom of my heart for everything you do for women, children, and Gay People.
The time is coming for those who have been complicit in this scandal,
to reap what they have sown. People won't forget who they are, and what they have done.
And we will never forget how much you have done. You are a hero.
I'm so sorry that you have been let down, and hurt, by so many weak people.
The tide is turning.
Onwards and upwards, eh?
Sending lots of love and strength
Ellie Heretic
Beautifully put and I totally agree. Strength & solidarity to the man who did more to peak trans me than anyone else.
Yes I agree I love you too Graham I am finding the attacks on you and Arty Morty infuriating and distressing
Enough purity spirals we have lots of work ti do
I have a glimpse of how hard you work xxxx and how much difference you make xx
Wonderful post, Ellie...and I agree with all that you've said.
Totally Agree 👍👍👍👍👍👍
Agree every word Ellie. in the list of what he's done for women, children and homosexuals I would add trans people who are also being damaged by the madness.
That's fantastic news
His "On the Pedestal" list includes Owen Jones?
Oh dear.
Stewart Lee has let himself go.
Dave Chapelle, Ricky Gervais, Graham Linehan? Jealousy, just a bit? What an idiot....
Well, if you can't be among the very best...
Lol seriously he sides with OJ (37 1/2) and against DC RG and our very own GLinner 😂😂😂says it all.. must find his list… link anyone??
Link on Graham's letter...
What a prick 🙄 who gives a fuck who he likes n disnae like, wit is he, fuckin 10?!?!
Graham seems to
Well he shouldn’t but he has every right tae have his say about it.
What Lee done isn’t even high school playground shit, that’s primary school shit that a think is beneath even ma primary school weans 🤦🏻♀️
it's always useful to expose their position. I long suspected lee was another cultist TBH
They all are when they have an upcomin gig, or book or some other shit tae promote. They’re backin the wrong nag, they’ll find out eventually 😉
Or, is that his ‘character’ being snide and self righteous?
Graham are you getting on GETTR or what?
I wondered to. I am not a stupid person, but at this point SL has lost me on whether he is playing a character or not. Particularly in his writing - it's so opaque as to be almost incomprehensible.
He lives in a very right-on borough. He's left wing. He has children that go to a local school that has a handful of girls in each year group that identify as 'trans' or non-binary. He's had to make a choice to continue to be the darling of people like him and not piss off his kids or show some genuine independent thought. He has chosen the former.
What is so very sad is his willingness to trash you in the process. I am so sorry Graham. People who I trusted to just THINK have disappointed me in their tribalism.
I went to see him a couple of years ago and he said some lazy shit about Mumsnet which made me think that scratch another right-on man and find a misogynist, so it doesn't surprise me.
Oh, and that letter is really good
I think you raise a significant point. We saw how Jonathan Ross was reigned-in by his kid(s). Frankie Boyle has likely been neutered by his kids. Seems like Stewart is as well.
It's fucking pathetic.
Imagine having do little standing in your own house that your kids are dictating to you.
Any efforts to impress teenagers are ultimately futile, as any fool knows.
But it's pitiful for any adults to be led by the nose by their kids. No doubt it's a 'progressive area/school' issue, as this bollocks wouldn't hold water in a working class environment.
I have a theory on this. The seeds of being intimidated by your teens have been there in the permissive middle class parenting of the last decade or more. I saw it in the Primary School in which I worked. This was was a backlash against the authoritarian way we were parented. I hope a middle ground of authoritative parenting will be found.
This is so spot on.
I have teens. Luckily (so far) they seem to be eye-rolling in the main at the Trans/NB fad.
Since they were babies I noticed the prevailing trend in parenting. The idea that was the child was the centre of all things. Their likes and wants were the Sun in solar system of family harmony. The idea was they should never EVER be upset. This is where we end up - the overgrown toddlers still telling their parents how the family will work, think and act. Parents are frozen in fear of it.
Luckily, my 14 yr old son got his first mega angry rant from me when he dared parrot to me that JKR was a transphobe. He didn’t know what hit him. I asked him to come back with evidence. He’s never mentioned it since.
This is a modern day problem of our own making though. Schools say they need to teach resilience on one hand and then tell children any hurt feelings are actual violence on the other. It’s an over-correction from being blind to the child abuses of the past.
We turn to turn the world off and on again.
Thank you for elaborating - I totally agree.
I am a Newbie so do forgive me if I am reading the room incorrectly. My family is multi-racial. Pandering to teens is an overwhelmingly white middle class trait, in my lived experience (I am the white middle class one in my family) The non white sector of the family does not pander to teens, pays respect to elders and ancestors and largely keeps their nose out of the personal life of their children, the older generations once they have worked out which ones are going to be the doctor/lawyer/accountant HALF JOKING. The non white culture in my family is broadly the most successful immigrant group anywhere in the world as they focus on the health and wealth of the family unit, whatever it takes. I am not saying their track record is perfect by any means at all, when it comes to progressiveness and human rights, but the focus of the family energy, resources and support system is not distracted by this kind of bollocks.
Again, if I have misread the room, I will get my coat and do tell me to delete this thread and I will try and be more measured in future
I don't think it's as easy as you imply. My kids (ranging in age from 18 to 28) are fully on the TWAW bandwagon. I am certainly not trying to 'impress' them. I have tried several times to talk to them about it, as gently as possible. The result - on their part - has been tears, disappointment, shock. It's as though I suggested killing babies or dismembering puppies. I think more work needs to be done in this area - how to share gender critical views with one's teen/adult children without them shutting down. I would be interested to hear from anyone who has had success in this area.
The high level of emotion is good information about their cognitive dissonance. You are fighting the might of TikTok, Instagram, their friends and what counts as being a "nice person". I'd solely focus on their behaviour towards you if it arises again and they are rude, dismissive or name-calling. No personal experience as my two (18 and 21) seem to have negotiated this and the tricky position it puts them in with friends. Older one thinks it's all nonsense and doesn't much care what others think about him. Youngest one says it's girls who seems to be mostly on the TWAW and I think that speaks to how successfully they their natural social agreeableness has been manipulated.
There have been some good discussions on Mumsnet about this issue, in the Feminism: Sex and Gender topic, and I like this related thread on Twitter:https://twitter.com/HannahBerrelli/status/1460399160558030852
Thanks. Just to say, they have not been rude, dismissive or name-calling. They've been upset, hurt and tearful which is harder to write off. Will check out the link.
Tears can be nothing but manipulation to make one shut up. And if they don't learn how to deal with being upset at this age, how are they going to cope in future?
Yes, I can see how that's harder to deal with.
My 17 year old grandson says it’s all about girls “trying to be kind”. His mates think it’s a load of ####
Tell them the details of body mutilation; I have found no trans supporters who know anything about this and they're usually not willing to learn. Teenagers seem to be extremely sensitive hearing any physiological details, and I would start with chopping off the penis and testicles. If they're so supportive of this crap, they should be interested to hear the details.
Some photos of the lovelies who have raped women (that dude in Toronto) might go over well.
You know what's easy and fun? Grossing out teenagers. And it's very easy to do. I had lots of fun doing it when we hosted exchange students.
I can't work out what's the worse thing to say about lefty/progressive celebs who side with the TWAW side. That they've engaged in motivated reasoning to reach the conclusion that's most convenient for them or that they're completely sincere and would've supported this idea even if it wasn't popular in there social circles.
No Enemies
by Charles Mackay
You have no enemies, you say?
Alas! my friend, the boast is poor;
He who has mingled in the fray
Of duty, that the brave endure,
Must have made foes! If you have none,
Small is the work that you have done.
You've hit no traitor on the hip,
You've dashed no cup from perjured lip,
You've never turned the wrong to right,
You've been a coward in the fight.
Perfect poem for the occasion! ❤️
Thanks. We just rewatched that episode of The Crown last night, so it was top of mind.
Jeez! Another one? Fucking shit-bag. Trying to curry favour with a bunch of psychos who'll turn on him in a flash (look at Janey Godley!). We won't fucking forget you, mate. Back-stabbing sychophant. Not you or any of your lot - pissing on women's rights, or holding the dicks for those who do.
I am very sorry you have to experience so much betrayal und back stabbing. The struggle around this dangerous ideology seems to show us the spineless, the opportunists, the traitors and, perhaps most of all, the idiots. In those who embrace or passively support trans ideology it reliably brings out the worst. But, to take a more positive look, what remains are the true friends. Always keep that in mind. For your own sake. And for the sake of those who you fight for.
Yes, Graham is younger than I am, but I'm surprised it took this long for him to realize how most people have no idea of what being a friend means. I started learning this in my twenties when a "friend" I was being supportive of (in a group to which we both belonged) left me in the lurch after complaining to me about her treatment at the hands of the group. I began to learn to not bother defending people and to look at my "friends" with a skeptical eye.
"Trans allies" are cowards who prioritize being liked and accepted by the currently dominant culture over the safety and rights of women and children. No surprise that he wouldn't say a word to you face to face, or even via email. Doing so would take courage and conviction, which he completely lacks.
This is a great rebuttal, but please don't let this plonker take up one more second in your head rent-free. Dust off your hands and move on.
I really like this, " Dust off your hands and move on". It aims up how I've started to feel. I'm sick of being filled with impotent rage, trying to unpick why people like Stewart Lee do what they do. They go with the safe flow, they back up the bullies so the kind of light they want to avoid isn't shone on them.
They might advance their careers, but even if they don't, they won't disadvantage themselves. Perhaps there's some mileage to be got out of being subversive and challenging prejudice and hate, etc, whilst in fact being compliant, obsequious even, and establishing a basis for prejudice and the most vicious hatred. And there's misogyny, of course, that's a real pull for some.
I don't give a damn about them, obviously, it would be great if they could change and stop being shit, but if that's not going to happen, leave it. It's more important to keep drawing attention to what is happening, opposing it and trying to offer support to the women and children being harmed, threatened and exploited.
You have really summarized everything very well here, Graham.
This ideology is one feckin betrayal after another- what an utterly pathetic coward this man is.
Graham, you are absolutely bloody brilliant. You somehow take all the thoughts I've got buzzing incoherently round my head, and turn them into articulate, thoughtful and witty articles.
I was a big fan of his too, but when you support misogynists like OJ and "Ask" Shakar over people like Nimco Ali, there is no joke that will make that humorous. Feel a bit sad about this tbh, I thought he was a better man.
I wonder what he's got against anti-FGM campaigner Nimco Ali? Or the very thoughtful commentator Kenan Malik (whose name he mis-spells as Keenan)?
With Nimco, possibly because she is mercilessly harassed by "Trans Activists" and Men's Rights Activists. The former because she refuses to stop using the word "Female" in "Female Genital Mutilation" (it's transphobic, of course) and the latter because she refuses to divert her time into campaigning against penile circumcision, which MRAs argue is "just as bad" as Female Genital Mutilation.
Do they really say that? I've not heard that one before. That really shows plain ignorance.
I’ve seen people say it’s worse.
And - obviously - they are free to campaign against male circumcision all they wish... except that they never seem to do that, strangely enough.
He's bound to get into some kind of 'woke' trouble on tour this year. We'll see him crawling back, tail between his legs.
He doesn't need to, he's a rich white man, this will run off him as he has placed he allegiance with the Guardianista and the rest of the North London Village idiots, they always support their own.
This guy need to do some serious research before spouting poison towards a hero of a man who is doing his absolute best to shed light on this toxic issue, ultimately to protect women and children. It is shameful
Argh Graham, sorry this happened. This must hurt. It's really shitty of this bloke to put you on a public list. Would he say anything to your face?
My friends who cut me off for my views are never able to tell me why I'm wrong either.