Divide and conquer tactics used by the tras ,including lies and obfuscation ,is obviously designed to persuade us over to " their side " as if the real issues have somehow magically disappeared !! Debate among GC people is healthy anyway but we are all agreed that this ideology is harmful ,to women and children especially. The evidence is irrefutable and the damage that's been already done is huge. We can disagree on many things but the fight for biological truth and justice is what Unites us all in the end.. Well done to you ,Graham ,for everything you're doing.👏👏👏👏💓💓
Well done Graham and crew. I trust you know what you are doing but at the same time I really do wish you three would take a break for a while before this toxicity destroys your souls beyond repair. We value everything you have done. People fighting the same battle can have differing opinions on many issues but we need to keep our eye on the target!! The wheel is broken but the revolution is intact!
I unsubscribed from Karen a few months ago. I started to realise that the things she was saying could be legitimately called out as "transphobic". Now, I don't believe there is such a thing as a "transgender" person but there is such a thing as gender non conformity (which according to my understanding of feminism should actually be celebrated) and there is such a thing as gender dysphoria (which I believe should be understood and people who experience it shouldn't have to live in misery). Obviously I'm against self ID and gender identity ideology. Obviously. Karen seemed to want to call out gender non conformity as anti feminist (ie men shouldn't be allowed to wear dresses and that seemingly medical transition shouldn't be available to anyone). I find this position deeply worrying (its why I actually disagree with Julia Long and many others too). I believe this position weakens the GC movement because it sounds intolerant and extreme. There is no room for nuance and pragmatism. There is no room for the acknowledgment of human suffering that transcends ideological positions.
Anyway my fears have absolutely been vindicated now. The video she has up denouncing Genspect and members of the gender dysphoria alliance is, in my opinion, deeply damaging. I've politely left a message suggesting she actually listen to some of the interviews they have on the Transparency podcast.
This whole rift now within the GC movement appears to me to be about some in the movement taking an entrenched ideological position (ie AGP is ALL the patriarchy) and others saying hang on there is complexity here and if we really want to safeguard women and children we need to talk about it, we need to research it, we need to understand it. You can't just put the blinkers on and hope society is going to ultimately agree with you. On the whole I think most people are rational and reasonable and we will win by convincing them through evidence and reason not emotive and ideological purity.
I don't need to research or understand that men in dresses are fucking men. Save your compassion for the women and girls you're supposedly in defence of. Research and understanding of agp men who get stiff in satin.... that's all you need to understand, I've done your research for you LoL. It is not 'ideological purity' to have boundaries and say men in dresses are men forever, I don't give a flying fuck what they do in their bedrooms or private lives - the minute they come into women's spaces and say 'please understand I just get stiff in satin, have a little sympathy' is the day I tell them to get the fuck out. I will NOT kowtow to the delusion that men in dresses somehow deserve some special understanding of their fetish. Fuck off with that.
I don't disagree with what you're saying. My point is we need to bring the rest of society along with us. We just have different opinions about how to achieve our shared goals.
I must assume that what you write is correct, and I must say that not allowing men to wear dresses goes absolutely against what second-wave feminism was about: DESTROYING GENDER. Did I mind when I was in San Francisco in the eighties and I saw a man with chest hair wearing a dress? He wasn't pretending to be a woman, he was just a man in a dress.
And here we go: I watched second-wave feminism eat itself alive in Boston in the 1970s. It was depressing and disgusting with lesbians demanding that straight women accept lesbian BDSM. All movements are doomed as people within them -- who are probably in the pay of some nefarious organization -- set activists against one another. Look up COINTELPRO if you don't understand what I am talking about, deliberate activity on the part of the U.S. government to destroy movements seeking justice, peace and equality.
As far as The Ogre goes, someone with the ability needs to do some serious research into his funding and backing.
When all of us adults who are able to, realize that what matters most is all of the children, then we may get somewhere. Women's rights in this issue are very important, but to me they're not as important as children's fundamental rights to safety and bodily integrity. It would be nice if we could all unite around that instead of focusing so much on the "men against women" angle (which is not really radical feminism much anyway in my book). I have for over a year now supported and will continue to support TMWI. Its three hosts are doing a valuable service, on YT, free of charge to anyone who wants to watch. I have no doubt they have educated many people about this pressing social issue.
Good point about Cointelpro .... these kind of organisations have never stopped infiltrating political groups, and I think it's what's happening here because we are making gains.
A bit late to this thread, but my view is that Karen is working for the other side, or being manipulated by the other side, to bring us down. Never under estimated psyops!
The Internet is a hall of mirrors at the best of times. This is Canadian trans rights activists posing as GC, spreading gossip about two Canadian figures who have positions in organisations that Morgane Oger hates
Graham, did you know that there is an organization in Canada that openly solicits TRAs who want to infiltrate GC "hate groups" and offers them guidance on how to do so?
The Orwellian "Anti-Hate Canada" takes taxpayer money from Canadians, ostensibly to fight racism, and uses it to harass Canadian feminists. They are on an entire other level of monstrous behaviour.
Why is Karen at You're Kiddin' Right going to town on Graham? Why doesn't she attacks the bullies instead? I'm so disappointed in her that I've unsubscribed from her chanel.
So did I. I don't like her cocky, mouthy style. I found her amusing at first, but she's too much of a snarky gobshite for my tastes. And out of nowhere, she played the race card. Zzzz. No one has been racist to her. It's in her head.
Yes, I too found her amusing at first, but was quickly set aright on Spinster. She is obviously doing someone's dirty work and probably getting paid for it.
Whats the worse thing that would happen if you Arty and Helen stepped back for a month or so ? Any human being can only fight so hard , for so long and FFS there's few people who have fought so hard , for so long than the 3 of you . Hope this doesnt sound preachy but I'm concernend that burnout will both negate your past achievments and affect your future input in the fight .
I don’t think anything’s been “called.” What’s wrong with questioning people’s motives? I’m a woman who centers women in women’s rights work, and have no time for drama and gossip. I’m also not on “social” media as it’s a creepy place with a lot of highly manipulative types on there. I am also familiar with DARVO, in my personal life. Things can be made to look one way when they’re in fact the opposite, so I don’t react quickly or emotionally to anything said online. As the saying goes, the devil is in the details. Hang in there, people! I’m looking forward to the 19th.
I think it's worth mentioning that YouTube seems to really adore deleting comments left on any of the recognizably "GC" channels. There may be nothing at all "suspicious" there.
I think you're right, I had one comment disappear so wrote another then the first one returned so it looks like I'm repeating myself. I think those, if not deleted, are certainly scrutinised.
I had a really long comment, but ultimately I erased it. I'm at a loss for tangible words to describe how I feel about all of this. I just hope everyone can talk this out. Or that we can move past it. I wouldn't blame you all if you took a break from The Mess
I follow very few YouTube channels on this about from exulansic and tmwi just because I can’t be arsed with it becoming my main consumption of media- oh I also prolly kjk too but she’s entertaining at least. I just want to come in with my two pence and say I don’t give a shit about any of this and hope you personally are ok✌️
As for the rest of it sounds like an Attempt to throw shit at people in the hope it sticks and the smell gets too much for others to keep them around. People say things. Think of the mad stuff that people have said about KJK by twisting words or taking her out of context… her attitude? Fuck ye, I say what I think!
Hope it blows over and you can get peace from it. Ps Count Arthur has had me pissing myself. Still got it. X
Karen Davis is exactly the same as Karlyn Borysenko. If you don't know who Karlyn is, check her YouTube or Twitter. She made a splash when she joined the #WalkAway Movement and left the US Democratic Party. Karlyn thrives on picking fights with people who have bigger platforms than she does. Much of her work on political issues has been excellent, but she is a toxic destructive force, and people who used to be friends with her have publicly broken with her and are telling their stories. I recommend Mike Harlow's video, "The Truth About Karlyn." Mikey's a wonderful, brave guy. I don't need to agree with Arty on everything to be happy we both support the same cause, and smearing him by association because he talks to someone I hate (Cantor) is not the way I operate. I'm also quite sick of Karen's attacks on Glinner and the way she puts words in his mouth.
Exactly, we have to allow for some small disagreements in this big fight otherwise it's counter productive.
The f..king Guardian had a throwaway comment about how GC critical women disagree among themselves, well yes, of course, we're multi-faceted humans, not a blob of robots.
Why are you calling Aaron Kimberly a transman and he ? I think people are confused as the rules seem to change, depending on if you like them. I don't get why why someone's work history is a big deal anyway. If it had been online, anyone could it up. Fema Liam is a well known figure. Just ask Kellie Jay.
Why are you calling Aaron Kimberly a transman and he ? I think people are confused as the rules seem to change, depending on if you like them. I don't get why why someone's work history is a big deal anyway. If it had been online, anyone could it up. Fema Liam is a well known figure. Just ask Kellie Jay.
I call Aaron a he because he has dysphoria and is an ally to women. I do not observe the pronouns of misogynists or attention-seekers, neither of which he is
Divide and conquer tactics used by the tras ,including lies and obfuscation ,is obviously designed to persuade us over to " their side " as if the real issues have somehow magically disappeared !! Debate among GC people is healthy anyway but we are all agreed that this ideology is harmful ,to women and children especially. The evidence is irrefutable and the damage that's been already done is huge. We can disagree on many things but the fight for biological truth and justice is what Unites us all in the end.. Well done to you ,Graham ,for everything you're doing.👏👏👏👏💓💓
Well done Graham and crew. I trust you know what you are doing but at the same time I really do wish you three would take a break for a while before this toxicity destroys your souls beyond repair. We value everything you have done. People fighting the same battle can have differing opinions on many issues but we need to keep our eye on the target!! The wheel is broken but the revolution is intact!
I unsubscribed from Karen a few months ago. I started to realise that the things she was saying could be legitimately called out as "transphobic". Now, I don't believe there is such a thing as a "transgender" person but there is such a thing as gender non conformity (which according to my understanding of feminism should actually be celebrated) and there is such a thing as gender dysphoria (which I believe should be understood and people who experience it shouldn't have to live in misery). Obviously I'm against self ID and gender identity ideology. Obviously. Karen seemed to want to call out gender non conformity as anti feminist (ie men shouldn't be allowed to wear dresses and that seemingly medical transition shouldn't be available to anyone). I find this position deeply worrying (its why I actually disagree with Julia Long and many others too). I believe this position weakens the GC movement because it sounds intolerant and extreme. There is no room for nuance and pragmatism. There is no room for the acknowledgment of human suffering that transcends ideological positions.
Anyway my fears have absolutely been vindicated now. The video she has up denouncing Genspect and members of the gender dysphoria alliance is, in my opinion, deeply damaging. I've politely left a message suggesting she actually listen to some of the interviews they have on the Transparency podcast.
This whole rift now within the GC movement appears to me to be about some in the movement taking an entrenched ideological position (ie AGP is ALL the patriarchy) and others saying hang on there is complexity here and if we really want to safeguard women and children we need to talk about it, we need to research it, we need to understand it. You can't just put the blinkers on and hope society is going to ultimately agree with you. On the whole I think most people are rational and reasonable and we will win by convincing them through evidence and reason not emotive and ideological purity.
I don't need to research or understand that men in dresses are fucking men. Save your compassion for the women and girls you're supposedly in defence of. Research and understanding of agp men who get stiff in satin.... that's all you need to understand, I've done your research for you LoL. It is not 'ideological purity' to have boundaries and say men in dresses are men forever, I don't give a flying fuck what they do in their bedrooms or private lives - the minute they come into women's spaces and say 'please understand I just get stiff in satin, have a little sympathy' is the day I tell them to get the fuck out. I will NOT kowtow to the delusion that men in dresses somehow deserve some special understanding of their fetish. Fuck off with that.
I don't disagree with what you're saying. My point is we need to bring the rest of society along with us. We just have different opinions about how to achieve our shared goals.
I must assume that what you write is correct, and I must say that not allowing men to wear dresses goes absolutely against what second-wave feminism was about: DESTROYING GENDER. Did I mind when I was in San Francisco in the eighties and I saw a man with chest hair wearing a dress? He wasn't pretending to be a woman, he was just a man in a dress.
And here we go: I watched second-wave feminism eat itself alive in Boston in the 1970s. It was depressing and disgusting with lesbians demanding that straight women accept lesbian BDSM. All movements are doomed as people within them -- who are probably in the pay of some nefarious organization -- set activists against one another. Look up COINTELPRO if you don't understand what I am talking about, deliberate activity on the part of the U.S. government to destroy movements seeking justice, peace and equality.
As far as The Ogre goes, someone with the ability needs to do some serious research into his funding and backing.
When all of us adults who are able to, realize that what matters most is all of the children, then we may get somewhere. Women's rights in this issue are very important, but to me they're not as important as children's fundamental rights to safety and bodily integrity. It would be nice if we could all unite around that instead of focusing so much on the "men against women" angle (which is not really radical feminism much anyway in my book). I have for over a year now supported and will continue to support TMWI. Its three hosts are doing a valuable service, on YT, free of charge to anyone who wants to watch. I have no doubt they have educated many people about this pressing social issue.
Good point about Cointelpro .... these kind of organisations have never stopped infiltrating political groups, and I think it's what's happening here because we are making gains.
*underestimate
A bit late to this thread, but my view is that Karen is working for the other side, or being manipulated by the other side, to bring us down. Never under estimated psyops!
I really don't understand any of this it's way over my head
The Internet is a hall of mirrors at the best of times. This is Canadian trans rights activists posing as GC, spreading gossip about two Canadian figures who have positions in organisations that Morgane Oger hates
Graham, did you know that there is an organization in Canada that openly solicits TRAs who want to infiltrate GC "hate groups" and offers them guidance on how to do so?
The Orwellian "Anti-Hate Canada" takes taxpayer money from Canadians, ostensibly to fight racism, and uses it to harass Canadian feminists. They are on an entire other level of monstrous behaviour.
https://www.antihate.ca/get_involved
https://www.antihate.ca/the_fight_against_trans_women_in_alberta
https://www.antihate.ca/canada_fights_back_anti_trans_hate_counter_postering_campaign
Me neither & mine too.
Lively comments on the video on Youtube.
I don't follow Arty so I am only picking up what others say.
If I am reading it right the comments Arty's made are dodgy.
I do see people genuinely concerned but also a concentrated attempt by some to inflame and poison the situation.
All the best to you Graham to staying loyal to friends and women's concerns!
Why is Karen at You're Kiddin' Right going to town on Graham? Why doesn't she attacks the bullies instead? I'm so disappointed in her that I've unsubscribed from her chanel.
So did I. I don't like her cocky, mouthy style. I found her amusing at first, but she's too much of a snarky gobshite for my tastes. And out of nowhere, she played the race card. Zzzz. No one has been racist to her. It's in her head.
Yes, I too found her amusing at first, but was quickly set aright on Spinster. She is obviously doing someone's dirty work and probably getting paid for it.
I meant 'channel' (not the bloody perfume)
Don't let The Bastards grind any of you down, Graham. Sending love to dear Arty, to you and to Helen....
Whats the worse thing that would happen if you Arty and Helen stepped back for a month or so ? Any human being can only fight so hard , for so long and FFS there's few people who have fought so hard , for so long than the 3 of you . Hope this doesnt sound preachy but I'm concernend that burnout will both negate your past achievments and affect your future input in the fight .
I don’t think anything’s been “called.” What’s wrong with questioning people’s motives? I’m a woman who centers women in women’s rights work, and have no time for drama and gossip. I’m also not on “social” media as it’s a creepy place with a lot of highly manipulative types on there. I am also familiar with DARVO, in my personal life. Things can be made to look one way when they’re in fact the opposite, so I don’t react quickly or emotionally to anything said online. As the saying goes, the devil is in the details. Hang in there, people! I’m looking forward to the 19th.
No time for drama and gossip, YES! And you are spot on about social media.
I think it's worth mentioning that YouTube seems to really adore deleting comments left on any of the recognizably "GC" channels. There may be nothing at all "suspicious" there.
I think you're right, I had one comment disappear so wrote another then the first one returned so it looks like I'm repeating myself. I think those, if not deleted, are certainly scrutinised.
Not involved in infighting. Came by to thank you Graham for sticking through this despite all the hell heaped on you for standing your ground.
I had a really long comment, but ultimately I erased it. I'm at a loss for tangible words to describe how I feel about all of this. I just hope everyone can talk this out. Or that we can move past it. I wouldn't blame you all if you took a break from The Mess
I follow very few YouTube channels on this about from exulansic and tmwi just because I can’t be arsed with it becoming my main consumption of media- oh I also prolly kjk too but she’s entertaining at least. I just want to come in with my two pence and say I don’t give a shit about any of this and hope you personally are ok✌️
As for the rest of it sounds like an Attempt to throw shit at people in the hope it sticks and the smell gets too much for others to keep them around. People say things. Think of the mad stuff that people have said about KJK by twisting words or taking her out of context… her attitude? Fuck ye, I say what I think!
Hope it blows over and you can get peace from it. Ps Count Arthur has had me pissing myself. Still got it. X
Karen Davis is exactly the same as Karlyn Borysenko. If you don't know who Karlyn is, check her YouTube or Twitter. She made a splash when she joined the #WalkAway Movement and left the US Democratic Party. Karlyn thrives on picking fights with people who have bigger platforms than she does. Much of her work on political issues has been excellent, but she is a toxic destructive force, and people who used to be friends with her have publicly broken with her and are telling their stories. I recommend Mike Harlow's video, "The Truth About Karlyn." Mikey's a wonderful, brave guy. I don't need to agree with Arty on everything to be happy we both support the same cause, and smearing him by association because he talks to someone I hate (Cantor) is not the way I operate. I'm also quite sick of Karen's attacks on Glinner and the way she puts words in his mouth.
Exactly, we have to allow for some small disagreements in this big fight otherwise it's counter productive.
The f..king Guardian had a throwaway comment about how GC critical women disagree among themselves, well yes, of course, we're multi-faceted humans, not a blob of robots.
Like the Guardian. News manufactured in a computer.
Why are you calling Aaron Kimberly a transman and he ? I think people are confused as the rules seem to change, depending on if you like them. I don't get why why someone's work history is a big deal anyway. If it had been online, anyone could it up. Fema Liam is a well known figure. Just ask Kellie Jay.
Why are you calling Aaron Kimberly a transman and he ? I think people are confused as the rules seem to change, depending on if you like them. I don't get why why someone's work history is a big deal anyway. If it had been online, anyone could it up. Fema Liam is a well known figure. Just ask Kellie Jay.
I call Aaron a he because he has dysphoria and is an ally to women. I do not observe the pronouns of misogynists or attention-seekers, neither of which he is