Thanks for this article! I understand that it might be confusing for some who did not watch the purity debates unfold, but I think it contains one important message I'd like to comment on: Leave DSDs out of the debate around trans ideology! For three reasons:
(1) DSDs per se have nothing to do with trans, it's bad enough that TRAs misuse persons with DSDs for their agenda. If a person with DSD declares him/herself trans, they choose an ideology and can be debated on the basis of trans ideology.
(2) The majority of persons with DSDs fall clearly into the categories male or female (Klinefelter being the classical example), but some rare cases are not quite as easy to categorize. CAIS being one example, ovotestes another. CAIS is insofar a clear case, as that the developmental process towards male is interupted very early on, people with CAIS have no functional testes, female external genitalia and testosterone has no impact whatsover on any tissue due to the lack of a functional receptor - thus, they're indistinguishable from a genetic female in whom the development of internal genitalia (ovary, uterus) failed for any other reason. While being technically male (if looking at the differentiation pathway per se for definign sex), they phenocopy females in any other way. Plus the late diagnosis means that persons with CAIS will have lived as females and believed to be females until their teens. They can't become more masculine, because testosterone doesn't work - they have absolutely no choice but to remain in a body that is all female except for the lack of an uterus and ovaries. Forcing such individuals into the male category to me appears unnecessary cruel, and it does nothing to help against trans ideology but leaves persons with CAIS between a rock and a hard place. Ovotestes are a more complex scenario, which brings me to
(3) There are DSDs which lead to ambiguous genitalia. In Germany, legislators came up with what I consider to be a reasonable, pragmatic approach: An additional category "diverse" (besides male/female) which is open only, exclusively, to those with a properly diagnosed DSD and ambigous genitalia. Available data so far indicates that this category is used only for very few individuals; and it makes sense to have it because it allows parents, doctors, and ultimately the patients themselves to have an entry on the birth certificate without direct/indirect pressure for medical procedures to "make those people fit" more neatly into male/female. The affected persons didn't choose this, and it is likely difficult enough to come to terms with their special biological make up without additional expectations. Accomodating them by a third category to me seems to be the most humane solution, with little room for abuse (as the option is based on a clear diagnosis).
The "purity fight" over DSDs only diverts energy, time, and empathy, away from the more pressing issue at hand that is trans ideology.
I recently spoke to someone on YouTube who said he had an intersex condition and was also identifying as trans. He also said he was gay. He had a lot going on all at once. He also believed puberty blockers were not harmful. A lot going on.
But yes I absolutely agree, DSDs have nothing to do with gender ideology, and should never have been dragged into the argument, or used as a sort of prop. It’s horrible.
Yes: someone on social media the other day told me they knew “several” people with DSDs who “produced both sperm & ova”.
There is a condition - ovitesticular disorder - which I understand *might* produce that potential, but only about 500 people alive today world wide have it.
The chances of knowing several, unless you’re a researcher, is pretty slim.
DSDs and their underlying issues are so often invoked as ‘evidence’ of sex being a spectrum (even though I’ve had trans ppl tell me that gender has nothing, nothing at all to do with sex 🤥) but I’m pretty certain that all or nearly all trans people do not have an intersex condition. I’d love to know the figures for any chromosomal abnormalities in trans people but it’s never going to happen and we all know that most of them are just regular guys.
Appropriation of Intersex is a problem for those with DSD's in many ways, not just the conflation of developmental anomalies with gender identity.
Resources - medical and financial can be categorised as "Intersex" and be redirected away from DSD recipients, projects and organisations.
This blog post (by Claire) is one I use when confronted with the Intersex claims for gender ideology. Anyone reading it would be hard-pressed to defend that position:
Read it. If you like it, bookmark it. Then retrieve and post whenever the points in it need to be made.
The damage of gender ideology includes those with DSDs. We should lighten the burden of women like Claire by carrying some of the load. The tweet pointing out Claire's post is an example of adding rather than reducing.
Do you recognise the technique of criticising not content but tone and frequency?
It's really been bugging me how some feminists are tearing themselves and non-feminist supporters apart.
A reasonably well-known one - I won't mention her name but most people here will know her from her once great YouTube channel - has called me a fluffer for following The Glinner. All I'd suggested was that infighting was not helpful if we were to fight the bigger problem that is trans activism and the capturing of powerful companies and that therefore we should be pragmatic and disregard petty differences.
She now spends most of her energy on GETTR fighting with one woman after another who simply disagrees with her. What a total waste.
For those that have managed to follow this, on Gettr and elsewhere, this really has been been awful for those targeted. I understand in the comments below that it's hard to grasp this unless you know the details but perhaps wait for part 2. All I can say is shown horrible things have been said to people with DSDs in the name of GC. In summary, and it's just my opinion, sex observed at birth is being abandoned by a section of GC people in favour of TRA assigned at birth. After years of standing by the gender critical the DSD community are being used no differently than TRAs use them. This haven't been a pleasant, no empathy with any level of respect, its been nasty and vindictive.
For those targeted it must have been, some epic GC accounts , Rae, ClaireCais , Claire Graham , Alex, amongst others, no longer on Twitter , people that have been involved for years late at night taking on TRAs, I mean I use the word warrior advisably but they really are. And turned upon in a flash for some ideological rants that are utterly irrelevant and not needed.
Thanks; that article doesn't explicitly mention "TRA assigned at birth", but in this context the acronym yields "Trans Rights Activist assigned at birth"?
I don't get it, sorry. I've been vaguely aware of this set of arguments but not followed it. Articles written in the passive voice ("it was suggested", "we were told", "videos charged out") without naming the people involved or being explicit about who said what and why only serve to confuse me more, and convince me that I really don't want to dig into this saga. I got into this fight to save vital single-sex spaces, awards and public life for women and stop children being harmed, and I won't get sucked into drama.
I agree: language is important, and if I read something with too many abstract nouns and too many passive verbs, I tend not to trust it, - even if I can understand it! We need to speak our truth in plain, straightforward English - (or other language of your choice).
I’ve been somewhat aware of hassle directed towards people with DSDs and this whole “people with CAIS aren’t real women” bollox.
I’m only speaking for myself here, obvs, but I reckon that women identified as such from pre-natal scans and at birth, who have never gone through male puberty nor ever been socialised as males, but who suddenly discover at puberty they have possibly life-limiting health & fertility conditions, can be counted as women *enough*, and certainly don’t need to be bullied.
And that’s my take: it’s bollox and people should cut it out.
Given how people with DSDs are co-opted & fetishised by the TRAs, we need their voices to be heard. Their struggle might not be my struggle, but they’re here too.
I have no idea of the details of who said what to whom and don’t really want to know - I’d rather get on with stuff, and not amplify it.
That’s lucky, because reading this I’m absolutely none the wiser.
It’s disappointingly obscure, and I have no interest in being recruited to boo at the baddies.
I think it would be better, you know, to just hear from the people with DSDs.
Or tell us who’s the White Supremacist & why you think so.
I never quite understand why pieces like this are so annoyingly cloak and dagger and full of veiled references which hardly anyone (I assume) can understand. It’s like some sort of GC ‘The Da Vinci Code’ or even Scooby Doo. Is there going to be some big reveal at the end of the article? (No, there wasn’t) or a naming of names? Names, I suppose, that I wouldn’t know quite possibly.
I am trying not to be flippant about people being unfairly attacked but I think this is always the problem with any ‘movement’. It can all get a bit too niche and obsessive and ridiculous factions emerge. And then people lose sight of what’s actually important: keeping male predators out of women’s spaces and protecting children and young people from an ideology which celebrates medicalising them with artificial hormones for life.
What I find difficult is when allusions are made eg, to 'famous lesbians' which leads people to then start (even if only in their own heads) starting to guess who that might be.
I adore Exulansic, except on this one topic. I used to think like her, but one must always be open to changing your views when presented with more evidence. Ironically it was a transwoman friend who changed my view on this, not a GC. They stood up for CAIS women against many GCs.
But I can disagree with Exulansic on this, and still appreciate the rest of her work.
Yes , I've been aware of this row going on but tbh ,I never really got a good grasp of which " side " supported what. I do know that Exulansic lost her YouTube channel and that this issue had something to do with it. Looking forward to part 2 of this story and maybe I'll understand the arguments Better
I also am very confused, have been a huge fan of Exulansic, and tbh, am prepared to give her the benefit of the doubt until / unless I'm sure she's acting in bad faith. As I understand it, and PLEASE CORRECT ME if I've got this wrong, there are a few cases where there are people who claim to have CAIS but their statements are contradictory and Exulansic thinks they aren't genuine??? I will delete this if I get a lot of aggro as I genuinely would like to understand what's going on as at the moment I'm avoiding Exulansic's stuff as I can't cope with in fighting, but equally don't want to condemn her if she is being unfairly attacked. I wish this hadn't started as it feels like a diversion from our main battle.
Yes. Whilst I think Exulansic went too far over the CAIS people, one individual with CAIS turned out to have PAIS (partial androgen insensitivity syndrome) which leaves the individual much more masculinised and undoubtedly male. This person had lied about her/his backstory. The truth was that he was raised male (with PAIS) and had reassignment surgery and implants and changed his name to Jessyca (and was exposed as having written a book about the process. Then later he/she reinvented themselves as "Dalea with CAIS".
Exulansic was taken out because of the clash between GCs over intersex but technically Dalea was a masculine intersex male all along and lying about CAIS because with CAIS you're practically a woman but with male chromosomes.
As for the rest, I've stayed out of these TERF supremacist disputes. Such a shame we can't all work together. There's room for a range of perspectives
Thank you for that explanation! I had partially pieced together some of that but wasn’t sure, and didn’t understand what had gone on before the PAIS issue. DSDs are definitely a very sensitive issue. There is much more that unites us.
Thanks for this explanation 🙂. I too will always give Exulansic credit for her daring, dangerous (to her) interventions. But having a personality who IS so daring and so confident means having someone who just WILL NOT stand aside in an argument, and we just have to put up with the down side.
Exulansic approaches these (and most other) issues from a scientific point of view. "CAIS is a genetic condition in which a child is genetically male, but develops female external genitalia and undescended testes...internal female genitalia: uterus, cervix and proximal vagina are absent..the distal part of the vagina can be observed...it is always shorter than normal and blind-ending." It doesn't matter where one looks for DSD information, it's the same: CAIS individuals are male; therefore Exulansic is not going to call them "CAIS girls." I knew/know nothing about DSD and because the condition is so exceedingly rare, I would have thought that anyone w/DSD or a DSD child wouldn't want to touch the toxic TRAlibans w/10 ft pole. I'm in the US and don't know Claire Graham; I can see that this Exulansic video would make her livid, but I can't see that Exulansic is making anything up here: https://rumble.com/vv9yle-clairevoyance-how-i-just-knew-id-find-gender-identity-ideology-and-child-gr.html On Gettr, Claire and others have been going after Exulansic w/all the usual Traliban tactics; slandering (oops, slandering is oral defamation, so...) and libeling her, suggesting she be reported to her prof. association, and going after her livelihood (stuff I wouldn't do to my worst enemy), which says MUCH worse things about them than anything they could say about Exulansic. I wasn't going to say anything about this, but I'm really sick of the libelposts on Gettr about Exulansic, all a la Traliban: high on BS & low on facts. I also have a soft spot in my heart for Exulansic. And Glinner. And Meghan. And so so many people I don't know from Adam or Eve but feel are somehow my friends through this strange online existence we share, people who've lost so much and have suffered so much. I just wish people could stop the fighting. It is such a losing tactic.
Some people are hard-wired for adversity, no matter what affiliations they make. They could join the local baking club and make enemies by way of their underhanded, backstabbing, coercive-narcissism. It's sad that both they and those who rally around them have these traits, because yes, the failure of any human movement is down to division and strife. It's extremely unnecessary and counter-productive, but it has it's place in every human movement, no matter how altruistic.
Anonymous screeds lacking clarity and that seek to further sow and enflame division in the GC movement are an unfortunate new development for this substack. Given the preposterous state of affairs where political leadership cannot say what a woman is, there is a need for definitions that have an unambiguous etymology. Exulansic has rooted her criteria in the SRY gene expression. (I think that’s what it’s called.). In her mind, the unassailability and foundational nature of this male/female sorting criteria gives it its strength and utility. Personally, it’s not where I would draw the line, but the impulse to have unbreechable (sp) categories is certainly understandable, given the world we are in.
Claire Graham works for Genspect. That organization has already published a detailed account of their position, reposted on this substack, in which they reiterated support for those with DSD and called out those they perceive as having undermined or distorted their work. ‘Nuff said. Why is Genspect allowing their staff to engage in continued public squabbling over this very narrow and highly limited topic? They said their piece, in a detailed professional way, to a wide audience. While Anonymous uses the Exulansic screen shot bemoaning Claire’s gettr profligacy as a failure of empathy for Claire’s undeserved harassment (receipts please), the more appropriate question would be why a professional organization exhibit such a lack of responsible oversight of the messaging on their behalf.
The number of people who wish this internecine fight to continue has to be near zero. We’re very clearly in the agree to disagree phase, and Genspect, as the actual professional organization in this squabble must be the first to put down their weapons. Grey rock, no comment, no oxygen by the organization and their staff. This cycle must be broken, and it is incumbent on Genspect to take the leadership role. Part 2 should be scrapped.
I wish I was surprised that some people in the ‘GC movement’ behaved like this, but I’ve seen it before on the left and sadly within feminist movements. It doesn’t undermine the basic arguments for women’s rights, although it’s so demoralising for those involved. Hoping that people don’t become discouraged from the good work they have been doing.
Didn't this all start when a man who doesn't actually have CAIS claimed he was a woman with CAIS? He has PAIS. I'm also a bit wary of why ALL OF A SUDDEN TR/MR activists are 'fighting the DSD corner'. Could it be that if we really CAN'T tell just by looking that someone is a woman with 99+% accuracy, then we are all wrong and basically anyone should be allowed to pretend they have DSD or are actually woman that look and sound like men? Is there any actual CAIS people shouting about this?
My nephew was born with a DSD and consequently I have always advocated for people with DSDs. It has been absolutely horrendous to see the arguments on Twitter, first the TRAs, then the purity GCs, drag people like Rae and Claire into bickering about biology. Like most of this debate though, if TRAs hadn’t insisted on colonising and appropriating everything, none of this would be an issue, so people should turn their fire on them, not other GC women, HSTS, gay men, male allies and certainly not on people with DSDs.
Thank you Anonymous! The atmosphere has been dreadful and the infighting distressing. On Gettr it’s totally out of control and there’s doxxing and counter doxxing of women by women- including a prominent lesbian activist contacting the AGP ex-husband of a trans widow and her estranged sons suggesting she needed to be hospitalised. Abusive and aggressive language has become commonplace and paranoia is rife. Nina Paley and Corinna Cohn created the “T*RF Tr*ny Alliance” as a lighthearted response to what was happening, as women were being shamed by other women for being on friendly terms with certain trans identified males, and also as a way to help fund their podcast Heterodorx. This has been turned into a conspiracy about forceteaming women with AGPs masterminded by none other than Linehan himself. And the hostility towards trans identified GC males and females has been breathtaking, although the attack on people with DSD has been the worst part of all. You are right, Anonymous, this isn’t Feminism and I took Feminist out of my Twitter bio because I don’t want to be associated with such cruel and toxic behaviours. I hope that before long I will feel able to put it back in.
Gettr does sound like a snake pit. I registered an account just as insurance in case I lost twitter, but I’ve only peeked a couple of times & it’s hideous.
Claire Graham, A wider lens and gender dysphoria alliance are amazing and they have done so much good work in helping people to understand why people might transition. I thought we had been arguing to leave people with DSD's out of this fight, and I agree with Claire that we are in a ridiculous position if we are arguing that yes, men can have vaginas. Benjamin Boyce had a great video of an interview with a person with a DSD. it was insightful and really interesting. I believe that person was then hounded by people to the extent that they asked for the video to be removed. A gentler conversation should be had around people with DSD's, and they should not be conflated with the trans lobby.
If they promote scientific inaccuracies, how do they differ from the trans lobby, really? They could also just be promoting their own personal interest, and nothing more, which in this case, violates the rights of women and girls.
I was not aware that there were questions over them being intersex. I am going to concentrate on the trans stuff - though I do recognise the difficulties over this and I wonder if there will be more people claiming to be intersex as the trans identity loses its shine.
I agree that we need to keep focus but if we don't have a stable definition of male and female we will continue to have our boundaries pushed and we will be unable to hold the line.
Thanks for this article! I understand that it might be confusing for some who did not watch the purity debates unfold, but I think it contains one important message I'd like to comment on: Leave DSDs out of the debate around trans ideology! For three reasons:
(1) DSDs per se have nothing to do with trans, it's bad enough that TRAs misuse persons with DSDs for their agenda. If a person with DSD declares him/herself trans, they choose an ideology and can be debated on the basis of trans ideology.
(2) The majority of persons with DSDs fall clearly into the categories male or female (Klinefelter being the classical example), but some rare cases are not quite as easy to categorize. CAIS being one example, ovotestes another. CAIS is insofar a clear case, as that the developmental process towards male is interupted very early on, people with CAIS have no functional testes, female external genitalia and testosterone has no impact whatsover on any tissue due to the lack of a functional receptor - thus, they're indistinguishable from a genetic female in whom the development of internal genitalia (ovary, uterus) failed for any other reason. While being technically male (if looking at the differentiation pathway per se for definign sex), they phenocopy females in any other way. Plus the late diagnosis means that persons with CAIS will have lived as females and believed to be females until their teens. They can't become more masculine, because testosterone doesn't work - they have absolutely no choice but to remain in a body that is all female except for the lack of an uterus and ovaries. Forcing such individuals into the male category to me appears unnecessary cruel, and it does nothing to help against trans ideology but leaves persons with CAIS between a rock and a hard place. Ovotestes are a more complex scenario, which brings me to
(3) There are DSDs which lead to ambiguous genitalia. In Germany, legislators came up with what I consider to be a reasonable, pragmatic approach: An additional category "diverse" (besides male/female) which is open only, exclusively, to those with a properly diagnosed DSD and ambigous genitalia. Available data so far indicates that this category is used only for very few individuals; and it makes sense to have it because it allows parents, doctors, and ultimately the patients themselves to have an entry on the birth certificate without direct/indirect pressure for medical procedures to "make those people fit" more neatly into male/female. The affected persons didn't choose this, and it is likely difficult enough to come to terms with their special biological make up without additional expectations. Accomodating them by a third category to me seems to be the most humane solution, with little room for abuse (as the option is based on a clear diagnosis).
The "purity fight" over DSDs only diverts energy, time, and empathy, away from the more pressing issue at hand that is trans ideology.
The clearest explanation I've seen anywhere. Thank you.
I recently spoke to someone on YouTube who said he had an intersex condition and was also identifying as trans. He also said he was gay. He had a lot going on all at once. He also believed puberty blockers were not harmful. A lot going on.
But yes I absolutely agree, DSDs have nothing to do with gender ideology, and should never have been dragged into the argument, or used as a sort of prop. It’s horrible.
Yes: someone on social media the other day told me they knew “several” people with DSDs who “produced both sperm & ova”.
There is a condition - ovitesticular disorder - which I understand *might* produce that potential, but only about 500 people alive today world wide have it.
The chances of knowing several, unless you’re a researcher, is pretty slim.
DSDs and their underlying issues are so often invoked as ‘evidence’ of sex being a spectrum (even though I’ve had trans ppl tell me that gender has nothing, nothing at all to do with sex 🤥) but I’m pretty certain that all or nearly all trans people do not have an intersex condition. I’d love to know the figures for any chromosomal abnormalities in trans people but it’s never going to happen and we all know that most of them are just regular guys.
Yes I’ve watched some of his videos. I like him a lot.
Thank you.
Appropriation of Intersex is a problem for those with DSD's in many ways, not just the conflation of developmental anomalies with gender identity.
Resources - medical and financial can be categorised as "Intersex" and be redirected away from DSD recipients, projects and organisations.
This blog post (by Claire) is one I use when confronted with the Intersex claims for gender ideology. Anyone reading it would be hard-pressed to defend that position:
https://differently-normal.com/2021/10/25/the-invention-of-intersex/
Read it. If you like it, bookmark it. Then retrieve and post whenever the points in it need to be made.
The damage of gender ideology includes those with DSDs. We should lighten the burden of women like Claire by carrying some of the load. The tweet pointing out Claire's post is an example of adding rather than reducing.
Do you recognise the technique of criticising not content but tone and frequency?
I do.
It's really been bugging me how some feminists are tearing themselves and non-feminist supporters apart.
A reasonably well-known one - I won't mention her name but most people here will know her from her once great YouTube channel - has called me a fluffer for following The Glinner. All I'd suggested was that infighting was not helpful if we were to fight the bigger problem that is trans activism and the capturing of powerful companies and that therefore we should be pragmatic and disregard petty differences.
She now spends most of her energy on GETTR fighting with one woman after another who simply disagrees with her. What a total waste.
-- Brothers! We shouldn't be fighting each other. We must unite against the common enemy.
-- The Judaean People's Front!
-- No! No! The Romans!
Monty Python had that one down to a T.
Not to mention the "Call me Loretta" scene - they were ahead of their time!
"Stan -- you haven't got a womb. Where's the fetus going to gestate? You going to keep it in a box?"
Yes, me too.
For those that have managed to follow this, on Gettr and elsewhere, this really has been been awful for those targeted. I understand in the comments below that it's hard to grasp this unless you know the details but perhaps wait for part 2. All I can say is shown horrible things have been said to people with DSDs in the name of GC. In summary, and it's just my opinion, sex observed at birth is being abandoned by a section of GC people in favour of TRA assigned at birth. After years of standing by the gender critical the DSD community are being used no differently than TRAs use them. This haven't been a pleasant, no empathy with any level of respect, its been nasty and vindictive.
Thanks for the information. That does indeed sound terrible.
For those targeted it must have been, some epic GC accounts , Rae, ClaireCais , Claire Graham , Alex, amongst others, no longer on Twitter , people that have been involved for years late at night taking on TRAs, I mean I use the word warrior advisably but they really are. And turned upon in a flash for some ideological rants that are utterly irrelevant and not needed.
Rae is back on Twitter.
Yeah just seen that, just missed the 30 day rule doh
I'd like to know who is saying these things? Are they anonymous? How widespread is it?
What does "TRA assigned at birth" mean?
This is good place to get the correct answer to that
https://womansplaceuk.org/2019/10/21/biological-sex-is-not-a-spectrum-there-are-only-two-sexes-in-humans-with-claire-graham/
Thanks; that article doesn't explicitly mention "TRA assigned at birth", but in this context the acronym yields "Trans Rights Activist assigned at birth"?
I mean it's TRAs who have adopted assigned at birth for their own aims
Ah. Derpy me. Sorry for the confusion, I was parsing that all wrong.
My fault, what's in my head doesn't always come across well
and if there's no Doctor present, maybe the Mother might notice her baby's sex!
I don't get it, sorry. I've been vaguely aware of this set of arguments but not followed it. Articles written in the passive voice ("it was suggested", "we were told", "videos charged out") without naming the people involved or being explicit about who said what and why only serve to confuse me more, and convince me that I really don't want to dig into this saga. I got into this fight to save vital single-sex spaces, awards and public life for women and stop children being harmed, and I won't get sucked into drama.
That’s why it’s written the way it is. She’s trying to limit drama.
Not writing this is the best way to limit the drama. Also, Drama dissolves with clear language and unbiased accounts. This post lacks either.
I agree: language is important, and if I read something with too many abstract nouns and too many passive verbs, I tend not to trust it, - even if I can understand it! We need to speak our truth in plain, straightforward English - (or other language of your choice).
Men cannot become women and I will go where ever for information. Also I will not get involved in peoples squabbles.
I am also listening and learning on DSD.
I’ve been somewhat aware of hassle directed towards people with DSDs and this whole “people with CAIS aren’t real women” bollox.
I’m only speaking for myself here, obvs, but I reckon that women identified as such from pre-natal scans and at birth, who have never gone through male puberty nor ever been socialised as males, but who suddenly discover at puberty they have possibly life-limiting health & fertility conditions, can be counted as women *enough*, and certainly don’t need to be bullied.
And that’s my take: it’s bollox and people should cut it out.
Given how people with DSDs are co-opted & fetishised by the TRAs, we need their voices to be heard. Their struggle might not be my struggle, but they’re here too.
I have no idea of the details of who said what to whom and don’t really want to know - I’d rather get on with stuff, and not amplify it.
That’s lucky, because reading this I’m absolutely none the wiser.
It’s disappointingly obscure, and I have no interest in being recruited to boo at the baddies.
I think it would be better, you know, to just hear from the people with DSDs.
Or tell us who’s the White Supremacist & why you think so.
I never quite understand why pieces like this are so annoyingly cloak and dagger and full of veiled references which hardly anyone (I assume) can understand. It’s like some sort of GC ‘The Da Vinci Code’ or even Scooby Doo. Is there going to be some big reveal at the end of the article? (No, there wasn’t) or a naming of names? Names, I suppose, that I wouldn’t know quite possibly.
I am trying not to be flippant about people being unfairly attacked but I think this is always the problem with any ‘movement’. It can all get a bit too niche and obsessive and ridiculous factions emerge. And then people lose sight of what’s actually important: keeping male predators out of women’s spaces and protecting children and young people from an ideology which celebrates medicalising them with artificial hormones for life.
What I find difficult is when allusions are made eg, to 'famous lesbians' which leads people to then start (even if only in their own heads) starting to guess who that might be.
I adore Exulansic, except on this one topic. I used to think like her, but one must always be open to changing your views when presented with more evidence. Ironically it was a transwoman friend who changed my view on this, not a GC. They stood up for CAIS women against many GCs.
But I can disagree with Exulansic on this, and still appreciate the rest of her work.
Yeah her exposes on the botched surgeries are extremely valuable
Yes , I've been aware of this row going on but tbh ,I never really got a good grasp of which " side " supported what. I do know that Exulansic lost her YouTube channel and that this issue had something to do with it. Looking forward to part 2 of this story and maybe I'll understand the arguments Better
I also am very confused, have been a huge fan of Exulansic, and tbh, am prepared to give her the benefit of the doubt until / unless I'm sure she's acting in bad faith. As I understand it, and PLEASE CORRECT ME if I've got this wrong, there are a few cases where there are people who claim to have CAIS but their statements are contradictory and Exulansic thinks they aren't genuine??? I will delete this if I get a lot of aggro as I genuinely would like to understand what's going on as at the moment I'm avoiding Exulansic's stuff as I can't cope with in fighting, but equally don't want to condemn her if she is being unfairly attacked. I wish this hadn't started as it feels like a diversion from our main battle.
Yes. Whilst I think Exulansic went too far over the CAIS people, one individual with CAIS turned out to have PAIS (partial androgen insensitivity syndrome) which leaves the individual much more masculinised and undoubtedly male. This person had lied about her/his backstory. The truth was that he was raised male (with PAIS) and had reassignment surgery and implants and changed his name to Jessyca (and was exposed as having written a book about the process. Then later he/she reinvented themselves as "Dalea with CAIS".
Exulansic was taken out because of the clash between GCs over intersex but technically Dalea was a masculine intersex male all along and lying about CAIS because with CAIS you're practically a woman but with male chromosomes.
As for the rest, I've stayed out of these TERF supremacist disputes. Such a shame we can't all work together. There's room for a range of perspectives
Thank you for that explanation! I had partially pieced together some of that but wasn’t sure, and didn’t understand what had gone on before the PAIS issue. DSDs are definitely a very sensitive issue. There is much more that unites us.
Thanks for this explanation 🙂. I too will always give Exulansic credit for her daring, dangerous (to her) interventions. But having a personality who IS so daring and so confident means having someone who just WILL NOT stand aside in an argument, and we just have to put up with the down side.
Exulansic approaches these (and most other) issues from a scientific point of view. "CAIS is a genetic condition in which a child is genetically male, but develops female external genitalia and undescended testes...internal female genitalia: uterus, cervix and proximal vagina are absent..the distal part of the vagina can be observed...it is always shorter than normal and blind-ending." It doesn't matter where one looks for DSD information, it's the same: CAIS individuals are male; therefore Exulansic is not going to call them "CAIS girls." I knew/know nothing about DSD and because the condition is so exceedingly rare, I would have thought that anyone w/DSD or a DSD child wouldn't want to touch the toxic TRAlibans w/10 ft pole. I'm in the US and don't know Claire Graham; I can see that this Exulansic video would make her livid, but I can't see that Exulansic is making anything up here: https://rumble.com/vv9yle-clairevoyance-how-i-just-knew-id-find-gender-identity-ideology-and-child-gr.html On Gettr, Claire and others have been going after Exulansic w/all the usual Traliban tactics; slandering (oops, slandering is oral defamation, so...) and libeling her, suggesting she be reported to her prof. association, and going after her livelihood (stuff I wouldn't do to my worst enemy), which says MUCH worse things about them than anything they could say about Exulansic. I wasn't going to say anything about this, but I'm really sick of the libelposts on Gettr about Exulansic, all a la Traliban: high on BS & low on facts. I also have a soft spot in my heart for Exulansic. And Glinner. And Meghan. And so so many people I don't know from Adam or Eve but feel are somehow my friends through this strange online existence we share, people who've lost so much and have suffered so much. I just wish people could stop the fighting. It is such a losing tactic.
Some people are hard-wired for adversity, no matter what affiliations they make. They could join the local baking club and make enemies by way of their underhanded, backstabbing, coercive-narcissism. It's sad that both they and those who rally around them have these traits, because yes, the failure of any human movement is down to division and strife. It's extremely unnecessary and counter-productive, but it has it's place in every human movement, no matter how altruistic.
Anonymous screeds lacking clarity and that seek to further sow and enflame division in the GC movement are an unfortunate new development for this substack. Given the preposterous state of affairs where political leadership cannot say what a woman is, there is a need for definitions that have an unambiguous etymology. Exulansic has rooted her criteria in the SRY gene expression. (I think that’s what it’s called.). In her mind, the unassailability and foundational nature of this male/female sorting criteria gives it its strength and utility. Personally, it’s not where I would draw the line, but the impulse to have unbreechable (sp) categories is certainly understandable, given the world we are in.
Claire Graham works for Genspect. That organization has already published a detailed account of their position, reposted on this substack, in which they reiterated support for those with DSD and called out those they perceive as having undermined or distorted their work. ‘Nuff said. Why is Genspect allowing their staff to engage in continued public squabbling over this very narrow and highly limited topic? They said their piece, in a detailed professional way, to a wide audience. While Anonymous uses the Exulansic screen shot bemoaning Claire’s gettr profligacy as a failure of empathy for Claire’s undeserved harassment (receipts please), the more appropriate question would be why a professional organization exhibit such a lack of responsible oversight of the messaging on their behalf.
The number of people who wish this internecine fight to continue has to be near zero. We’re very clearly in the agree to disagree phase, and Genspect, as the actual professional organization in this squabble must be the first to put down their weapons. Grey rock, no comment, no oxygen by the organization and their staff. This cycle must be broken, and it is incumbent on Genspect to take the leadership role. Part 2 should be scrapped.
I wish I was surprised that some people in the ‘GC movement’ behaved like this, but I’ve seen it before on the left and sadly within feminist movements. It doesn’t undermine the basic arguments for women’s rights, although it’s so demoralising for those involved. Hoping that people don’t become discouraged from the good work they have been doing.
Didn't this all start when a man who doesn't actually have CAIS claimed he was a woman with CAIS? He has PAIS. I'm also a bit wary of why ALL OF A SUDDEN TR/MR activists are 'fighting the DSD corner'. Could it be that if we really CAN'T tell just by looking that someone is a woman with 99+% accuracy, then we are all wrong and basically anyone should be allowed to pretend they have DSD or are actually woman that look and sound like men? Is there any actual CAIS people shouting about this?
My nephew was born with a DSD and consequently I have always advocated for people with DSDs. It has been absolutely horrendous to see the arguments on Twitter, first the TRAs, then the purity GCs, drag people like Rae and Claire into bickering about biology. Like most of this debate though, if TRAs hadn’t insisted on colonising and appropriating everything, none of this would be an issue, so people should turn their fire on them, not other GC women, HSTS, gay men, male allies and certainly not on people with DSDs.
Thank you Anonymous! The atmosphere has been dreadful and the infighting distressing. On Gettr it’s totally out of control and there’s doxxing and counter doxxing of women by women- including a prominent lesbian activist contacting the AGP ex-husband of a trans widow and her estranged sons suggesting she needed to be hospitalised. Abusive and aggressive language has become commonplace and paranoia is rife. Nina Paley and Corinna Cohn created the “T*RF Tr*ny Alliance” as a lighthearted response to what was happening, as women were being shamed by other women for being on friendly terms with certain trans identified males, and also as a way to help fund their podcast Heterodorx. This has been turned into a conspiracy about forceteaming women with AGPs masterminded by none other than Linehan himself. And the hostility towards trans identified GC males and females has been breathtaking, although the attack on people with DSD has been the worst part of all. You are right, Anonymous, this isn’t Feminism and I took Feminist out of my Twitter bio because I don’t want to be associated with such cruel and toxic behaviours. I hope that before long I will feel able to put it back in.
Gettr does sound like a snake pit. I registered an account just as insurance in case I lost twitter, but I’ve only peeked a couple of times & it’s hideous.
Claire Graham, A wider lens and gender dysphoria alliance are amazing and they have done so much good work in helping people to understand why people might transition. I thought we had been arguing to leave people with DSD's out of this fight, and I agree with Claire that we are in a ridiculous position if we are arguing that yes, men can have vaginas. Benjamin Boyce had a great video of an interview with a person with a DSD. it was insightful and really interesting. I believe that person was then hounded by people to the extent that they asked for the video to be removed. A gentler conversation should be had around people with DSD's, and they should not be conflated with the trans lobby.
If they promote scientific inaccuracies, how do they differ from the trans lobby, really? They could also just be promoting their own personal interest, and nothing more, which in this case, violates the rights of women and girls.
If you mean Dalea, he had been claiming a DSD he didn't have
I was not aware that there were questions over them being intersex. I am going to concentrate on the trans stuff - though I do recognise the difficulties over this and I wonder if there will be more people claiming to be intersex as the trans identity loses its shine.
I agree that we need to keep focus but if we don't have a stable definition of male and female we will continue to have our boundaries pushed and we will be unable to hold the line.