I try not to enter into internecine battles but this was just too much. Sarah Ditum and Helen Lewis were part of a group of ‘head girl’ feminists who sent me identical letters tone-policing me because I had started calling out the cowardice of people in our social circle in not addressing this issue. When I tried to politely ignore these messages, they, along with sceptic Tracy King, were successful in removing the last remaining parts of my social circle, leaving me even more isolated when my marriage was buckling under the strain of being in this fight.
Sep 24, 2022·edited Sep 24, 2022Liked by mole at the counter
This is an appalling thing to say. KJK's support for & defence of women & girls is self evident. She has been an incredible warrior in this fight and her campaign is having tremendous success. Like you, Posie has done nothing to deserve such nastiness. Some of the women I used to so admire in feminism have turned out to be a massive disappointment.
I agree. They are feminists as long as the boat isn't rocked too much and as long as it suits their agenda and definition of feminism. I's say that tweet was pure projection.
Not only do the TRAs believe they, and they alone, get to define who is a woman, they also believe they, and they alone, get to define who is a feminist.
It's like wolves deciding they get to decide not only who is a sheep, but also who is a shepherd.
And it looks awfully like the TRAs have gotten into Sarah Ditum's head.
I suspect that the 'professional feminists' who say despicable things about KJK are consumed with jealousy for all she has achieved and her burgeoning popularity. Kinda shows up just who the real feminists are.
She's also very attractive and, unfortunately, that doesn't sit well with many women. I get so sad when I see women put other women down because they're jealous of 1) their looks, 2) their financial status, 3) their brains, 4) their popularity, whatever it may be. And when these women engage in this activity, they are absolutely proving themselves NOT to be feminists.
Sep 24, 2022·edited Sep 24, 2022Liked by mole at the counter
Posie's working class AND (whisper it)
• a mother of four, who cares viscerally about kids, including other mothers' kids – part of why she was one of the very first finally to move the debate beyond just women's rights to also expose what's happening to kids and teens and to families
• a woman who has a husband she seems devoted to (= cis-het! worst on the privilege pole, and somehow a follower of patriarchy omg despite her obvious independence of mind and spirit)
• a woman who enjoys rocking a Marilyn Monroe look for fun
• an unashamedly unedited speaker of her mind, no need of academic feminist jargon or training.
I definitely don’t think she’s working class, if she is she’s had wonderful elocution lessons. You wouldn’t survive on a council estate with her voice.
She explains in her YT video that her dad was a factory worker and her mum was a cleaner. So yes, she definitely has working class roots. She also said that people assume her husband is minted but that’s not the case — they’re comfortable, however, so she’d no longer consider herself working class (as Moley already mentioned).
The Guardian - the former Manchester Guardian - and its staff are about as middle and upper class as it is possible to be without actually being a Norman baron. It now only pays lip service to anything truly left and working class - if indeed it ever did so. It is a shambolic, confused paper without direction.
Correction: It's 'direction' now is to adhere to, and promote nonsensical gender identity religion above sense, reason and scientific evidence - under the guise of 'being nice'.
It is now an ideological mess. It has chosen its side, that is clear. And when this ideological drivel is finally beaten back into the pointless, time-wasting University 'Studies' courses that it arose from, I hope it flounders and struggles like all of the pointless, meandering tin-pot ideologues, columnists and book-reviewers that it has promoted and published and also for the male transgender professors and drag 'artists' and 'writers' that it has praised, pandered, pampered and pushed into the limelight, and emboldened without any recourse.
A Norman baron! What?!?!? Norman barons weren't working-class?
At least in the U.K. you use the phrase working-class. Here in the "classless" U.S. -- the only thing funnier than that is U.S. news readers who couldn't tell the truth if their pants were on fire -- there's nothing between poor and middle-class, at least according to the last poll I received on the telephone. That's right: Just wipe out millions of people because you can't use the dread word working-class!
Wow, that’s not right. Posie Parker is inspirational and undoubtedly brave in the brutal world we’re in. Why on earth would we expect all of us to think and behave identically. I’m so disappointed that any woman who understands the issues would turn on any other woman in the fight to protect womens rights.
The problem with all this is there is a history I don’t think many are aware of. It boils down to some people who feel that aligning with the right wing damages the movement. Indeed this accusation is made time and again by TRA’s and now they have plenty of evidence to use. No names were called when this rift happened 5 years ago now. The name calling has, up till now, all been on one side. The differences as far as I know were very much not made public by women experienced in political change, realising that having principles and boundaries is reasonable and they may differ and is no cause for divisiveness. Unfortunately now all anyone hears is the very public name calling and unseemly fight this seems to have become.
Some women base their feminist principles squarely in an intellectual framework of socialism. Kelly Jay Keen-Minshul does not. That’s fine, however if we don’t want this movement to be smeared as right wing populism then we have to be careful not to align with right wing populists I guess?
I think everyone should pipe down a bit and realise some in this fight aren’t interested in politics and some are. Can we not agree to disagree? Sharing a platform with right wing elements is a choice. Don’t be upset if some call you out for it.
'Sharing a platform' was a public park. That is not aligning or supporting and this is purity politics, never Goldilocks ever quite the right this or that. And yes, I am aware. We've been here time and time again but it's some women hurling intellectualised abuse at KJK without giving any explanation. That is why so many will not call themselves Feminists. It's what puts many off what they see of 'Feminism'. Own f**king goal. There is no need for this.
You guess? Read the articles here. Then the comments. Then you won't need to guess.
To Janet’s original comment in this thread about sharing platforms with the right, and I guess to your point about purity politics. I care about right wing women, and religious women, all of them.
I agree with much of what is being said here. It was an open meeting and as such impossible to Police who is there. I also agree that the Tweet referring to LePen etc is overblown and, as GL says, disgraceful. It will alienate so many and does nothing to forward our cause. This rift has done so much damage and I wish someone could mediate and sort it out. It's quite clear feelings have been badly hurt but it has now come out of the private domain into the public. Name calling has happened on both sides and although I admit I have referred to 'who threw the first stone' that is also futile because no-one really cares except the people, directly involved. anyone got any ideas on who could bring about a meeting of the warring parties and lance this festering boil which is REALLY damaging our movement?
I mean, all you seem to be accusing Kellie-Jay of is allowing women to speak on a wider platform than you'd like. Would you rather women just shut the fuck up when people you find distasteful are around? Are we only allowed to enact our free speech in front of the Jill-approved?
Perhaps you could listen to Kellie-Jay herself when she says she will allow anyone to hear what is supposed to be our collective message, regardless of how pure or not they're deemed by the sanctimonious. If these people who you find so disgusting have children, are you really happy for those children to be indoctrinated into gender ideology? Are you happy for their children to be "transitioned" because you find the parents repugnant?
This clutching at some faux moral heighground really is getting very tedious.
I accused you of shutting up women's free speech, since that is what you actively and explicitly advocated in your comment. I suggested we should not keep the "far right" (whoever the fuck they are - since gender critical women are accused of being "far right" too), in ignorance because *all* children and *all* parents are deserving of truth, regardless of how YOU judge them. It blows my mind you have the audacity to accuse anyone else of division after you
1. Demonised others who don't agree with you.
2. Twist my valid argument into some really wild accusation.
By saying women should shut up because you don't like some live streaming platform is divisive.
I've demonstrated my own point, not yours. I can speak for myself, thank you.
Given the liberal elite’s behaviour over the years on this issue I’m not surprised you’re highlighting HOO’s presence & not other elements at play during this event. It’s a free platform - KJK’s ALWAYS said anyone can turn up at her events & speak / film; even TRAs. I presume the freedom to film / speak applies to HOO too, or would you rather stick to your Policing of other people’s events? You could turn up & speak / film at KJK’s events yourself; or you could organise your own event & Police that.
"A lot of people were filming from right in front of the stage. The organisers and stewards seemed rather more concerned with the organisation of the event and keeping everyone safe...
"...I took the time to check their Twitter feed. Five short clips of the speakers: three under a minute long, one just over a minute and one of 1 min 22 secs. All filmed in portrait mode so presumably using a mobile phone rather than film crew. YouTube channel - nothing. Maybe there is more somewhere else but clearly this filming was not the "big event" you have made it out to be."
So fucking what? It's a public place where anyone can turn up and film or speak. The other side has been asked to speak yet they refuse. They will not engage in conversation with KJK at these events. They just shout abuse, slogans and assault people. That is not her fault. You really sound like a shill. Are you a TRA?
When the only fucking platform available is a right wing platform, I'll take it! That is the problem here. You must know that by now. The Tucker Carlsons are having our side on their shows. CNNs and MSNBCs are no-platforming our side. Though it may bother some people, there are a few places where feminism and right-wing interests intersect. The current women's and children's safety and boundaries issue (Queer Ideology), pornography and prostitution (albeit for different reasons) are few examples of this intersection. It just is.
Julie Bindel can take a loooong walk off a short pier. I'm sick of her and her fake socialism. All of these fake socialists would shit bricks if they ever lived in an actual socialist country. They are the dinosaurs who continue peddling socialism while they live lives far from it. I sure as shit don't want to live in their worlds.
Divide and rule. Always works. KJKs house on fire analogy is perfect; we must not let disagreements over other stuff distract us from the one central issue. The suffragettes were a mixed bunch but they focused on that one target.
I totally agree. This public arguing and name calling (on both sides) is just terrible for 'the movement'. There has to be room for a plurality of opinion. KJK has done some amazing work, articulating womens fears, publicising the movement and should be a huge asset. WPUK have also done amazing work, hard work, long painstaking hours in their own time for no financial reward affecting change at policy level. BOTH are invaluable. There have been wounds on both sides. I am not partisan on this, I have been part of discussions early on using various monikers and disguises. I am not in disguise now. Can someone not mediate? I propose a meeting IRL between the various factions and some sort of truce be made. That means acknowledging the harm done and mistakes made on BOTH sides.
Graham, ol school buddy, I was at 7 years ahead of you in lLesson St. You are a beacon for us men, you are standing up for our Sisters rights and you are an inspiration. I live on west Wales and you are welcome here for a holiday, I serve good, honest food and the views around here are fab. You a man of all men, bless you Brother. Alternatively I will travel to you for a weekend of craic, chat and the karma that took us to cus....
Thumbs up to men like you. I respect KJK's preference to highlight women's voices, but your voices are so important too. And I'm so happy to see that you promote her work here, Graham.
All this mean girls stuff does is make me less likely to listen to the people doing it. I've unfollowed a lot of "feminists" over this, and I've made decisions about who's project or crowdfunder to support based on this too.
Have your beliefs that allegiance to the left is more important than winning this particular battle if you want to. Don't get in the way of people who disagree and want to get this done. I'm homeless left but I know I can't vote left until this is done because they're all spineless cowards who are pretending this area of politics isn't a thing. Women's rights deserve to come first. The left won't help if it doesn't lose them any votes not no. It's childish to pretend otherwise.
And poisons unity. The Lionesses won because of outstanding team spirit, unity, support for each other. Their coach deliberately fostered those. Result!
Can you read my comment above and see if you think there is anyone who can be approached to mediate? Am I dreaming? This is what drive me away from feminism in the early 80's. It always seems to happen when human beings try to form a movement. can we possibly rise above it and address the underlying issues?
I don't think it's possible tbh. Those against Posie took against her a long time ago and have just been waiting for another opportunity. There's a lack of respect for people who have a different approach which I don't think can be countered.
Kara Dansky has been on Tucker too. So has Billboard Chris. The most important thing right now is raising awareness among the public - left, center & right - about what is really going on. That includes what Gender Ideology really is, the elimination of women& girls’ sex-based rights & the harm being done to kids  and adolescents.
Whether a woman identifies as someone else’s definition of a feminist or not is irrelevant. What matters is her actions - is she standing up for women & girls? Is she effective?
KJK is both, in no small part IMO because she speaks directly & is relatable. She’s also incredibly charismatic.
Another who's been on Tucker is detransitioner Helena Kerschner. The man gets views in the MILLIONS. A clip of Helena has been viewed over 3,700,000 times.
Oh but because he's conservative and we disagree with him on other issues we should shame people who are succeeding in reaching the largest possible audience in this fight? Seriously? Letting how many more lives get damaged while we sit offstage in judgment?
I'm guessing Helena speaking her mind on Tucker has awoken and stirred more people about detransitioners than any other detransitioner accounts to date, because of the reach of the platform. We all know that media outlets on the left typically shun and therefore silence the voices of detransitioners. Because they allegedly render trans-identified people unsafe through telling their truth. (Sigh.)
I'm so tired of this 'More Feminist Than Thou' L/R purity shit. Grateful as hell to Posie, Helena, Kara, Billboard Chris and so many others of all stripes, and to any media who give them/us airtime.
I did the same with Julie about 3 years ago. For a woman who's done so much for women, she's nasty and spiteful at the same time - same with Gale Dines. KJK has been really gracious about Julie in the past bec she knows how she's helped women in prison.
Believe it or not, I've actually listened to Tucker Carlson on other topics because he interviews interesting people. There is no point in this life dismissing people utterly because you probably don't agree with some of their opinions. I generally feel I have more in common with ordinary people than I do with wigged-out "progressives" who seem to support transgenderism, pedophilia, Nazism, endless war, and their own vast superiority to us mortals.
Good point, and probably part of the problem. The gangs got a pass from the intelligentsia and academic feminists because of racial politics and because they wouldn’t know the sort of girls targeted by the gangs. Posie reminds them of their own failures.
Ah I see,I've obviously missed some goings on,what did she do?
I read recently about some far right outfit I'd not heard of before ' Hearts of Oak ' being at a public event ,but wasn't sure from what I read she agreed with them or had any say in their attendance.
Other than that she strikes me as braver than me and has been super effective at getting her message over, especially in US re. Lia Thomas.Cant read up more today, grand daughters birthday duties beckon.
When you get a chance read what Helen Joyce has written with some of the background - there's a link further on in the thread. Hope you all have a good celebration :-)
Ok, now this is a spat and histrionics? And only you are gracious enough to rise above. So you waded in to tell us all we're ignorant and to shut up, then refuse to explain. Some people clearly need to try to explain as otherwise no one is any the wiser!
This is a perfect illustration of why Graham wrote what he did yet the irony of that appears to have passed you by. This is the very reason KJK rejects the term 'Feminist' because of this type of sneery and patronising put down yet refusal to engage.
Even if you have criticisms of KJK's approach, this is a shockingly nasty, classist and thoroughly unfounded thing to say about her. KJK is absolutely passionate about women's rights and children's safety, and there are much easier and more comfortable ways to care only about yourself than run a full-on campaign against gender ideology.
I'm so upset that we can't be united in the fight against the Men's Rights Movement. I've always felt that the intellectual feminists look down on ordinary women like me, who just care about rights and fairness for women. This sneery Tweet of Sarah's proves I was right.
I'm sorry, but I can't think of any phrase that encapsulates looking down on someone as much as referring to them as a "poundshop" does. She's literally saying Posie is a cheap, knock-off version of another woman. She's likening her to those shops she doesn't have to go to herself, with all her money the The Times has paid her, because she is the real deal! Validated by middle class newspaper subscribers. Not like those awful shops for working class people. Yucky! Seriously. Pretending this is not really snobbish, classist looking down her nose at "lesser" women is just as silly as pretending that men can be women.
I did denounce the Tweet, its completely uncalled for. However I really think some mediation is required. Kelli-Jay is hurt, there are reasons for that, other women have been hurt b y things that have been said publicly and its all very unseemly and its gotten way our of hand. Anyone thing of someone who can call the waring factions together?
While I do appreciate your optimism that no one’s looking down on anyone, you may be interested to know that Julie Bindel previously tweeted that she thinks KJK is a “thick feck”. Evidence, I would say, of looking down on someone! People like Ditum calling KJK a right-wing bigot when she evidently is not (yes, I am aware of all of the history), is also looking down on someone and elevating oneself as a right-thinking person.
Just as saying a man is a woman doesn’t make him a woman, simply affirming that Posie is a right-wing bigot does not make her one.
Janet I do hope you have a chance to sit down, read back through what you have written, seen the response to it, and perhaps maybe think about why some have reacted to what you have written and called us. Histrionics? Spat? Childish? Yet you abhor the name calling? Who are you to call me or anyone else childish? Who are you to determine what is dignified? It's hugely patronising and I wonder why. It is you diminishing and dismissing what people have written. Not engaging or educating. Not informing or helping. Not moving things on. Stirring. Look at the response that created.
Too many are too fed up with being tone policed as you have done and are continuing to do here. Shushing adults is very counterproductive.
I think public name calling is childish and does nothing to forward the movement. pretty simple. "Who am I"? Just a woman with an opinion and voicing it. Im not taking sides. I don't with to dissect things which happened in private publicly with people I dont know. I don't think that helps. I don't think it will throw light onto the situation - its histrionics. What would help is a meeting of the warring factions, ie the ones who are directly involved and bash out some common ground. This argument does nothing to further the cause. Does that explain my position? By the way I haven't NOT called anyone anything, I have called the public argument unseemly, which it is,.
This is genuinely hard to do online and I am being careful. So you are asking for a debate between those you are still saying are having histrionics. I know what histrionics means. It's not helpful and it's a faint hope to ask someone to engage with you when you are dismissing how they come across as 'histrionics'.
You use capitals to reiterate that you haven't called anyone anything, but you just did. Please read what you wrote!
Odd that you have written that it's childish and this is pretty simple, yet continue to do so. I have no wish to dissect things, but words are very important as they are how we communicate how we think and feel to others.
Dismissing the views of others by calling them childish or histrionics as you are still doing is not a good way to open up debate but is a great way to inflame or close it down. It is odd that you seem so unaware of what you are writing.
Are you a TRA or what? Looking down on Posie is precisely what the likes of S.Ditum and Julie Bindel do. The professional feminist class most certainly does look down on poor and working class women. They speak for themselves. They are no different then the left in general that looks down upon the working class with utter contempt. It's precisely why they are hung up on identity politics. They don't give a rat-fuck about the working class and have not done for decades.
Posie is out there successfully fighting for women's rights, including for these thankless hacks who can't see that they are actually supporting the patriarchy.
Weirdly, I was just watching a video Kellie and Venice Allan recorded back in 2018 where they stuck up for Sarah Ditum for not being listened to during a debate with various TRAs. A debate actually happened though, if you can imagine it.
The whole video feels strange to me, because there is this unspoken belief that the organised left will come to their senses. I felt the same at the time, I no longer feel that. It goes without saying that neither Kellie or Venice feel that either, I feel like they were just reaching the end of their tether in this vid. There is no more space left on the left, if you like.
Sarah's stuff I will read, but it was never essential Helen Lewis is my fourth favourite Helen at best, and actually I know a couple, so that makes her seventh at best. Staniland Joyce and Saxby are all far superior Helens in my opinion.
The same tired and empty accusations of "bigot" and "nazi" thrown at dissenters that everyone has seen endless times before. Even if bystanders accept these defamatory claims as true for once, I don't think these people have actually considered the implications of what they're saying: people are putting aside their differences to fight off an even greater evil.
I think they may be trying to convince each other that these voices (of reason, but to them pure evil, apparantly) don't come from anything near the left - their cognitive dissonance would be in danger of explosion in their heads if they had to admit it ...
Posie should have a Damehood and be in the House of Lords (although she probably wants to scrap both those things in reality). She was the obvious missing person from the Ladies Who Lunch photos, and this is why, she doesn't meet some purity test imposed by the self-determined ruling class of the women's movement (some of the women at that lunch of course openly support Posie all the way, wear her merchandise, so am not tarring them all with the same brush). It is very disappointing to see this sort of behaviour. It does nothing to help women or children.
You have to question the intelligence of the likes of Ditum, did Brexit not teach professional lefties anything? Telling ordinary people that they are supporting fascists and nazis and are too stupid to know it, does not have the effect the professional left thinks it does.
Agreed about Posie. For me she has been consistent in her messaging and her approach. I absolutely agree with people here saying it's about classism. Did the professional left learn nothing from Brexit? Of course not. They doubled down on "the plebs are so STUPID, why can't they see how right we are?" while embracing over-intellectualized garbage like gender theory and critical race theory and wondering why we keep pointing out that the emperor is naked. They seem to think they are above honestly examining the point of view of the majority of people. When ordinary, normal people can see that men-can-be-women-on-the-inside is bonkers and say so, you've really got to wonder where the elite have their heads stuck to keep arguing that actually it's the cutting edge of human rights.
The damaging garbage that is gender theory and critical race theory has really made it clear in my mind... these "academic" ideas are not smart at all. Someone like Posie sees things quite clearly, through the lens of women on the ground, without the fog of pretention.
So right. (I mean correct!) New Labour caused Brexit imo. (Sorry to go off topic). Working class women have no right to opinions apparently. We must only listen to our intellectual betters.
Deja vu. I wish this wouldn’t keep happening within feminism and the left, and I really wish it didn’t have to happen publicly and with personal attacks.
Women make up half the population and as we know the only thing we all have in common is our sex. There’s no way we’re all going to agree about everything and this particular battle involves the whole population so it can’t be policed by purists who think it belongs to them. Public in-fighting serves nobody but TRAs.
There’s also the conundrum of ‘Men, you should speak up. No, not like that!’
This is way more complex than I can sum up here and I don’t want to get into this pointless destructive debate, but I have to send a bit of solidarity. Don’t be demoralised.
I was a bit shocked to see that tweet. Really liked Sarah Ditum’s work in the Times. To me this has got way too snobby. Left wing is now the elite. I much prefer following people like Kimberley Isherwood. She says “ be part of the human race” or “be a disgrace”. Like Posie she’s down to earth and actually likes women and it really shows. This all reminds me of those privileged “TWAW” women in the workplace - who are never ever going to need a place in a Refuge - or a single sex prison cell- these vital services are not used by the privileged generally speaking.
Posie’s work is fantastic and I’m glad to have seen Helen Joyce at Brighton
This is an appalling thing to say. KJK's support for & defence of women & girls is self evident. She has been an incredible warrior in this fight and her campaign is having tremendous success. Like you, Posie has done nothing to deserve such nastiness. Some of the women I used to so admire in feminism have turned out to be a massive disappointment.
I couldn't agree more.
❤
I agree. They are feminists as long as the boat isn't rocked too much and as long as it suits their agenda and definition of feminism. I's say that tweet was pure projection.
Not only do the TRAs believe they, and they alone, get to define who is a woman, they also believe they, and they alone, get to define who is a feminist.
It's like wolves deciding they get to decide not only who is a sheep, but also who is a shepherd.
And it looks awfully like the TRAs have gotten into Sarah Ditum's head.
Exactly. The level of vitriol is astonishing.
I suspect that the 'professional feminists' who say despicable things about KJK are consumed with jealousy for all she has achieved and her burgeoning popularity. Kinda shows up just who the real feminists are.
She's also very attractive and, unfortunately, that doesn't sit well with many women. I get so sad when I see women put other women down because they're jealous of 1) their looks, 2) their financial status, 3) their brains, 4) their popularity, whatever it may be. And when these women engage in this activity, they are absolutely proving themselves NOT to be feminists.
A working class woman seems to be making a huge difference with her straight-talking, unwaveringly consistent message.
For whatever reason - envy, resentment - Sarah Ditum doesn't appear to like that very much and resorts to pseudo-intellectual insults.
There is only one winner here, and it's not the Guardian opinion columnist.
Posie's working class AND (whisper it)
• a mother of four, who cares viscerally about kids, including other mothers' kids – part of why she was one of the very first finally to move the debate beyond just women's rights to also expose what's happening to kids and teens and to families
• a woman who has a husband she seems devoted to (= cis-het! worst on the privilege pole, and somehow a follower of patriarchy omg despite her obvious independence of mind and spirit)
• a woman who enjoys rocking a Marilyn Monroe look for fun
• an unashamedly unedited speaker of her mind, no need of academic feminist jargon or training.
These must really get up some noses.
I definitely don’t think she’s working class, if she is she’s had wonderful elocution lessons. You wouldn’t survive on a council estate with her voice.
I think she grew up working class, but doesn't now consider herself to be so. (According to her wonderfully ranty video yesterday)
She is working class and educated. She grew up working class and then went to University.
Hilary Mantel too, working class and educated, she said in a wonderful documentary screened tonight.
I'd like to see the documentary. I'm not familiar with HM.
Hilary Mantel: Return to Wolf Hall, on BBC iPlayer
She explains in her YT video that her dad was a factory worker and her mum was a cleaner. So yes, she definitely has working class roots. She also said that people assume her husband is minted but that’s not the case — they’re comfortable, however, so she’d no longer consider herself working class (as Moley already mentioned).
I was responding and adding to Moley's post at the top of the thread.
Having said that we always reinvent ourselves and there is nothing wrong with that
You've missed out that she commits the heinous crime of being a 'housewife' and has no declared 'profession'.. jealousy sure is ugly.
I’m a Poundland / Poundshop shopper (a WRN Shopper too) and Sarah has just shown us what she thinks of my ‘class’.
I bet Sarah and all her (supposed) leftie Guardian mates are laughing at us working class women right now. Her ‘Left’ are the new Right.
The Guardian - the former Manchester Guardian - and its staff are about as middle and upper class as it is possible to be without actually being a Norman baron. It now only pays lip service to anything truly left and working class - if indeed it ever did so. It is a shambolic, confused paper without direction.
Correction: It's 'direction' now is to adhere to, and promote nonsensical gender identity religion above sense, reason and scientific evidence - under the guise of 'being nice'.
It is now an ideological mess. It has chosen its side, that is clear. And when this ideological drivel is finally beaten back into the pointless, time-wasting University 'Studies' courses that it arose from, I hope it flounders and struggles like all of the pointless, meandering tin-pot ideologues, columnists and book-reviewers that it has promoted and published and also for the male transgender professors and drag 'artists' and 'writers' that it has praised, pandered, pampered and pushed into the limelight, and emboldened without any recourse.
F*** it.
A Norman baron! What?!?!? Norman barons weren't working-class?
At least in the U.K. you use the phrase working-class. Here in the "classless" U.S. -- the only thing funnier than that is U.S. news readers who couldn't tell the truth if their pants were on fire -- there's nothing between poor and middle-class, at least according to the last poll I received on the telephone. That's right: Just wipe out millions of people because you can't use the dread word working-class!
Absolutely spot on, Moley 👏
Wow, that’s not right. Posie Parker is inspirational and undoubtedly brave in the brutal world we’re in. Why on earth would we expect all of us to think and behave identically. I’m so disappointed that any woman who understands the issues would turn on any other woman in the fight to protect womens rights.
The problem with all this is there is a history I don’t think many are aware of. It boils down to some people who feel that aligning with the right wing damages the movement. Indeed this accusation is made time and again by TRA’s and now they have plenty of evidence to use. No names were called when this rift happened 5 years ago now. The name calling has, up till now, all been on one side. The differences as far as I know were very much not made public by women experienced in political change, realising that having principles and boundaries is reasonable and they may differ and is no cause for divisiveness. Unfortunately now all anyone hears is the very public name calling and unseemly fight this seems to have become.
Some women base their feminist principles squarely in an intellectual framework of socialism. Kelly Jay Keen-Minshul does not. That’s fine, however if we don’t want this movement to be smeared as right wing populism then we have to be careful not to align with right wing populists I guess?
I think everyone should pipe down a bit and realise some in this fight aren’t interested in politics and some are. Can we not agree to disagree? Sharing a platform with right wing elements is a choice. Don’t be upset if some call you out for it.
'Sharing a platform' was a public park. That is not aligning or supporting and this is purity politics, never Goldilocks ever quite the right this or that. And yes, I am aware. We've been here time and time again but it's some women hurling intellectualised abuse at KJK without giving any explanation. That is why so many will not call themselves Feminists. It's what puts many off what they see of 'Feminism'. Own f**king goal. There is no need for this.
You guess? Read the articles here. Then the comments. Then you won't need to guess.
Right wing women are women too. I don’t want them to be victims of this either.
is this a reply to a different comment?
To Janet’s original comment in this thread about sharing platforms with the right, and I guess to your point about purity politics. I care about right wing women, and religious women, all of them.
Me too. This artificial divide between left and right leaves many cold.
I agree with much of what is being said here. It was an open meeting and as such impossible to Police who is there. I also agree that the Tweet referring to LePen etc is overblown and, as GL says, disgraceful. It will alienate so many and does nothing to forward our cause. This rift has done so much damage and I wish someone could mediate and sort it out. It's quite clear feelings have been badly hurt but it has now come out of the private domain into the public. Name calling has happened on both sides and although I admit I have referred to 'who threw the first stone' that is also futile because no-one really cares except the people, directly involved. anyone got any ideas on who could bring about a meeting of the warring parties and lance this festering boil which is REALLY damaging our movement?
I mean, all you seem to be accusing Kellie-Jay of is allowing women to speak on a wider platform than you'd like. Would you rather women just shut the fuck up when people you find distasteful are around? Are we only allowed to enact our free speech in front of the Jill-approved?
Perhaps you could listen to Kellie-Jay herself when she says she will allow anyone to hear what is supposed to be our collective message, regardless of how pure or not they're deemed by the sanctimonious. If these people who you find so disgusting have children, are you really happy for those children to be indoctrinated into gender ideology? Are you happy for their children to be "transitioned" because you find the parents repugnant?
This clutching at some faux moral heighground really is getting very tedious.
I accused you of shutting up women's free speech, since that is what you actively and explicitly advocated in your comment. I suggested we should not keep the "far right" (whoever the fuck they are - since gender critical women are accused of being "far right" too), in ignorance because *all* children and *all* parents are deserving of truth, regardless of how YOU judge them. It blows my mind you have the audacity to accuse anyone else of division after you
1. Demonised others who don't agree with you.
2. Twist my valid argument into some really wild accusation.
By saying women should shut up because you don't like some live streaming platform is divisive.
I've demonstrated my own point, not yours. I can speak for myself, thank you.
Given the liberal elite’s behaviour over the years on this issue I’m not surprised you’re highlighting HOO’s presence & not other elements at play during this event. It’s a free platform - KJK’s ALWAYS said anyone can turn up at her events & speak / film; even TRAs. I presume the freedom to film / speak applies to HOO too, or would you rather stick to your Policing of other people’s events? You could turn up & speak / film at KJK’s events yourself; or you could organise your own event & Police that.
"A lot of people were filming from right in front of the stage. The organisers and stewards seemed rather more concerned with the organisation of the event and keeping everyone safe...
"...I took the time to check their Twitter feed. Five short clips of the speakers: three under a minute long, one just over a minute and one of 1 min 22 secs. All filmed in portrait mode so presumably using a mobile phone rather than film crew. YouTube channel - nothing. Maybe there is more somewhere else but clearly this filming was not the "big event" you have made it out to be."
https://medium.com/@grumpy.old.bat/the-event-attended-by-up-to-200-people-eaeb35bd1eed
So fucking what? It's a public place where anyone can turn up and film or speak. The other side has been asked to speak yet they refuse. They will not engage in conversation with KJK at these events. They just shout abuse, slogans and assault people. That is not her fault. You really sound like a shill. Are you a TRA?
When the only fucking platform available is a right wing platform, I'll take it! That is the problem here. You must know that by now. The Tucker Carlsons are having our side on their shows. CNNs and MSNBCs are no-platforming our side. Though it may bother some people, there are a few places where feminism and right-wing interests intersect. The current women's and children's safety and boundaries issue (Queer Ideology), pornography and prostitution (albeit for different reasons) are few examples of this intersection. It just is.
Julie Bindel can take a loooong walk off a short pier. I'm sick of her and her fake socialism. All of these fake socialists would shit bricks if they ever lived in an actual socialist country. They are the dinosaurs who continue peddling socialism while they live lives far from it. I sure as shit don't want to live in their worlds.
Divide and rule. Always works. KJKs house on fire analogy is perfect; we must not let disagreements over other stuff distract us from the one central issue. The suffragettes were a mixed bunch but they focused on that one target.
I totally agree. This public arguing and name calling (on both sides) is just terrible for 'the movement'. There has to be room for a plurality of opinion. KJK has done some amazing work, articulating womens fears, publicising the movement and should be a huge asset. WPUK have also done amazing work, hard work, long painstaking hours in their own time for no financial reward affecting change at policy level. BOTH are invaluable. There have been wounds on both sides. I am not partisan on this, I have been part of discussions early on using various monikers and disguises. I am not in disguise now. Can someone not mediate? I propose a meeting IRL between the various factions and some sort of truce be made. That means acknowledging the harm done and mistakes made on BOTH sides.
Graham, ol school buddy, I was at 7 years ahead of you in lLesson St. You are a beacon for us men, you are standing up for our Sisters rights and you are an inspiration. I live on west Wales and you are welcome here for a holiday, I serve good, honest food and the views around here are fab. You a man of all men, bless you Brother. Alternatively I will travel to you for a weekend of craic, chat and the karma that took us to cus....
Lucas! What a lovely message to receive. Thank you I may well take you up on that offer!
Thumbs up to men like you. I respect KJK's preference to highlight women's voices, but your voices are so important too. And I'm so happy to see that you promote her work here, Graham.
Yes thanks Graham
Graham since you are coming to Wales will you invite Kim of Public Child Protection Wales on the Mess please, ta butty
'A man of all men, bless you Brother'.
All this mean girls stuff does is make me less likely to listen to the people doing it. I've unfollowed a lot of "feminists" over this, and I've made decisions about who's project or crowdfunder to support based on this too.
Have your beliefs that allegiance to the left is more important than winning this particular battle if you want to. Don't get in the way of people who disagree and want to get this done. I'm homeless left but I know I can't vote left until this is done because they're all spineless cowards who are pretending this area of politics isn't a thing. Women's rights deserve to come first. The left won't help if it doesn't lose them any votes not no. It's childish to pretend otherwise.
Exactly.
It’s also an enormous waste of time and energy.
Yes, totally agree. It takes time away from getting on with it.
And poisons unity. The Lionesses won because of outstanding team spirit, unity, support for each other. Their coach deliberately fostered those. Result!
That's the motive of the opposition! Get us all divided and quarrelling.
Can you read my comment above and see if you think there is anyone who can be approached to mediate? Am I dreaming? This is what drive me away from feminism in the early 80's. It always seems to happen when human beings try to form a movement. can we possibly rise above it and address the underlying issues?
I don't think it's possible tbh. Those against Posie took against her a long time ago and have just been waiting for another opportunity. There's a lack of respect for people who have a different approach which I don't think can be countered.
The sneering spite of Sarah Ditum took me by surprise and the snobbery.
Is it really just because PP went on Tucker Carlson do you think? (we know liberal/left leaning media shun or ignore GC people so hardly a surprise)
She's effective , not limited by a poliitical fence and can take ordinary women who arent professional academics and femnists with her.
Her courage is astonishing.
I unfollowed Sarah after that really vulgar nasty tweet.
She ought to apologise, doubt she will.Ratio speaks for itself .
Kara Dansky has been on Tucker too. So has Billboard Chris. The most important thing right now is raising awareness among the public - left, center & right - about what is really going on. That includes what Gender Ideology really is, the elimination of women& girls’ sex-based rights & the harm being done to kids  and adolescents.
Whether a woman identifies as someone else’s definition of a feminist or not is irrelevant. What matters is her actions - is she standing up for women & girls? Is she effective?
KJK is both, in no small part IMO because she speaks directly & is relatable. She’s also incredibly charismatic.
Another who's been on Tucker is detransitioner Helena Kerschner. The man gets views in the MILLIONS. A clip of Helena has been viewed over 3,700,000 times.
Oh but because he's conservative and we disagree with him on other issues we should shame people who are succeeding in reaching the largest possible audience in this fight? Seriously? Letting how many more lives get damaged while we sit offstage in judgment?
I'm guessing Helena speaking her mind on Tucker has awoken and stirred more people about detransitioners than any other detransitioner accounts to date, because of the reach of the platform. We all know that media outlets on the left typically shun and therefore silence the voices of detransitioners. Because they allegedly render trans-identified people unsafe through telling their truth. (Sigh.)
I'm so tired of this 'More Feminist Than Thou' L/R purity shit. Grateful as hell to Posie, Helena, Kara, Billboard Chris and so many others of all stripes, and to any media who give them/us airtime.
I unfollowed too. And Julie Bindel. So pretentious.
I did the same with Julie about 3 years ago. For a woman who's done so much for women, she's nasty and spiteful at the same time - same with Gale Dines. KJK has been really gracious about Julie in the past bec she knows how she's helped women in prison.
You were years ahead of me. I will pay more attention the future🙏
Yup. When Sarah said "prepare to be disappointed", she was really just referring to herself, wasn't she?
Haha, yes foreshadowing 😄
Is this all because Posie's accent isn't posh enough?
Don’t be silly
Believe it or not, I've actually listened to Tucker Carlson on other topics because he interviews interesting people. There is no point in this life dismissing people utterly because you probably don't agree with some of their opinions. I generally feel I have more in common with ordinary people than I do with wigged-out "progressives" who seem to support transgenderism, pedophilia, Nazism, endless war, and their own vast superiority to us mortals.
There’s way more to this than you know, so no it’s not all because KJK went on Carlson.
She also raised the alarm about the grooming gangs and called them out for what they are years before other self-proclaimed feminists did.
Good point, and probably part of the problem. The gangs got a pass from the intelligentsia and academic feminists because of racial politics and because they wouldn’t know the sort of girls targeted by the gangs. Posie reminds them of their own failures.
Yes. She did. This is the source or her 'racist' label. Leftists can only point out crimes of white people remember.
Ah I see,I've obviously missed some goings on,what did she do?
I read recently about some far right outfit I'd not heard of before ' Hearts of Oak ' being at a public event ,but wasn't sure from what I read she agreed with them or had any say in their attendance.
Other than that she strikes me as braver than me and has been super effective at getting her message over, especially in US re. Lia Thomas.Cant read up more today, grand daughters birthday duties beckon.
When you get a chance read what Helen Joyce has written with some of the background - there's a link further on in the thread. Hope you all have a good celebration :-)
There's way more to most things than I know. Would you care to elucidate?
No not really. Like all spats, I think it’s best to rise above it all. The more people try to explain and go into histrionics the worse it gets. 😕
Ok, now this is a spat and histrionics? And only you are gracious enough to rise above. So you waded in to tell us all we're ignorant and to shut up, then refuse to explain. Some people clearly need to try to explain as otherwise no one is any the wiser!
This is a perfect illustration of why Graham wrote what he did yet the irony of that appears to have passed you by. This is the very reason KJK rejects the term 'Feminist' because of this type of sneery and patronising put down yet refusal to engage.
I believed that you would be able to explain without going into histrionics, but if you don’t believe that I will have to defer to your judgment.
I think what I said above explains it all very adequately.
Even if you have criticisms of KJK's approach, this is a shockingly nasty, classist and thoroughly unfounded thing to say about her. KJK is absolutely passionate about women's rights and children's safety, and there are much easier and more comfortable ways to care only about yourself than run a full-on campaign against gender ideology.
I'm so upset that we can't be united in the fight against the Men's Rights Movement. I've always felt that the intellectual feminists look down on ordinary women like me, who just care about rights and fairness for women. This sneery Tweet of Sarah's proves I was right.
The tweet can be denounced- but no one ‘looks down’ on anyone. It’s a political argument but that’s all being lost in the slanging match. Very sad.
I'm sorry, but I can't think of any phrase that encapsulates looking down on someone as much as referring to them as a "poundshop" does. She's literally saying Posie is a cheap, knock-off version of another woman. She's likening her to those shops she doesn't have to go to herself, with all her money the The Times has paid her, because she is the real deal! Validated by middle class newspaper subscribers. Not like those awful shops for working class people. Yucky! Seriously. Pretending this is not really snobbish, classist looking down her nose at "lesser" women is just as silly as pretending that men can be women.
Yes, totally agree! (Stupid of me not to include that example in my comment!)
You're not stupid, there are too many examples from too many :-(
But you did include the Julie Bindel example, which I didn't know about and which is equally as disgusting and disappointing.
I did denounce the Tweet, its completely uncalled for. However I really think some mediation is required. Kelli-Jay is hurt, there are reasons for that, other women have been hurt b y things that have been said publicly and its all very unseemly and its gotten way our of hand. Anyone thing of someone who can call the waring factions together?
Like!! (My button not working!)
While I do appreciate your optimism that no one’s looking down on anyone, you may be interested to know that Julie Bindel previously tweeted that she thinks KJK is a “thick feck”. Evidence, I would say, of looking down on someone! People like Ditum calling KJK a right-wing bigot when she evidently is not (yes, I am aware of all of the history), is also looking down on someone and elevating oneself as a right-thinking person.
Just as saying a man is a woman doesn’t make him a woman, simply affirming that Posie is a right-wing bigot does not make her one.
I abhor the name calling. It's childish and beneath anyones dignity. So sad.
Janet I do hope you have a chance to sit down, read back through what you have written, seen the response to it, and perhaps maybe think about why some have reacted to what you have written and called us. Histrionics? Spat? Childish? Yet you abhor the name calling? Who are you to call me or anyone else childish? Who are you to determine what is dignified? It's hugely patronising and I wonder why. It is you diminishing and dismissing what people have written. Not engaging or educating. Not informing or helping. Not moving things on. Stirring. Look at the response that created.
Too many are too fed up with being tone policed as you have done and are continuing to do here. Shushing adults is very counterproductive.
I think public name calling is childish and does nothing to forward the movement. pretty simple. "Who am I"? Just a woman with an opinion and voicing it. Im not taking sides. I don't with to dissect things which happened in private publicly with people I dont know. I don't think that helps. I don't think it will throw light onto the situation - its histrionics. What would help is a meeting of the warring factions, ie the ones who are directly involved and bash out some common ground. This argument does nothing to further the cause. Does that explain my position? By the way I haven't NOT called anyone anything, I have called the public argument unseemly, which it is,.
This is genuinely hard to do online and I am being careful. So you are asking for a debate between those you are still saying are having histrionics. I know what histrionics means. It's not helpful and it's a faint hope to ask someone to engage with you when you are dismissing how they come across as 'histrionics'.
You use capitals to reiterate that you haven't called anyone anything, but you just did. Please read what you wrote!
Odd that you have written that it's childish and this is pretty simple, yet continue to do so. I have no wish to dissect things, but words are very important as they are how we communicate how we think and feel to others.
Dismissing the views of others by calling them childish or histrionics as you are still doing is not a good way to open up debate but is a great way to inflame or close it down. It is odd that you seem so unaware of what you are writing.
Are you a TRA or what? Looking down on Posie is precisely what the likes of S.Ditum and Julie Bindel do. The professional feminist class most certainly does look down on poor and working class women. They speak for themselves. They are no different then the left in general that looks down upon the working class with utter contempt. It's precisely why they are hung up on identity politics. They don't give a rat-fuck about the working class and have not done for decades.
Posie is out there successfully fighting for women's rights, including for these thankless hacks who can't see that they are actually supporting the patriarchy.
Weirdly, I was just watching a video Kellie and Venice Allan recorded back in 2018 where they stuck up for Sarah Ditum for not being listened to during a debate with various TRAs. A debate actually happened though, if you can imagine it.
https://youtu.be/p12ADSDzHwM?t=158
The whole video feels strange to me, because there is this unspoken belief that the organised left will come to their senses. I felt the same at the time, I no longer feel that. It goes without saying that neither Kellie or Venice feel that either, I feel like they were just reaching the end of their tether in this vid. There is no more space left on the left, if you like.
Sarah's stuff I will read, but it was never essential Helen Lewis is my fourth favourite Helen at best, and actually I know a couple, so that makes her seventh at best. Staniland Joyce and Saxby are all far superior Helens in my opinion.
The same tired and empty accusations of "bigot" and "nazi" thrown at dissenters that everyone has seen endless times before. Even if bystanders accept these defamatory claims as true for once, I don't think these people have actually considered the implications of what they're saying: people are putting aside their differences to fight off an even greater evil.
I think they may be trying to convince each other that these voices (of reason, but to them pure evil, apparantly) don't come from anything near the left - their cognitive dissonance would be in danger of explosion in their heads if they had to admit it ...
Cor,what a patronising snob Ms Ditum sounds. Same old tripe about us all being stupid and or right wing nutters .
She has my Birkenhead North End genes coming over all snarly.
And my east end (London) ones!
I think there's a lot of jealousy going on here. KJK also thinks it is because she is from working class. Her video last night was amazing.
One has to go to university to be a proper feminist. Working-class women should know better than to speak for women. /s
I'm sure they could all take a lesson from some of the indigenous/tribal women about real life feminism. Not to mention countries like Iran!
Absolutely,such spite and so revealing ...
Yes! Says more about Ditum than KJK.
Posie should have a Damehood and be in the House of Lords (although she probably wants to scrap both those things in reality). She was the obvious missing person from the Ladies Who Lunch photos, and this is why, she doesn't meet some purity test imposed by the self-determined ruling class of the women's movement (some of the women at that lunch of course openly support Posie all the way, wear her merchandise, so am not tarring them all with the same brush). It is very disappointing to see this sort of behaviour. It does nothing to help women or children.
You have to question the intelligence of the likes of Ditum, did Brexit not teach professional lefties anything? Telling ordinary people that they are supporting fascists and nazis and are too stupid to know it, does not have the effect the professional left thinks it does.
Agreed about Posie. For me she has been consistent in her messaging and her approach. I absolutely agree with people here saying it's about classism. Did the professional left learn nothing from Brexit? Of course not. They doubled down on "the plebs are so STUPID, why can't they see how right we are?" while embracing over-intellectualized garbage like gender theory and critical race theory and wondering why we keep pointing out that the emperor is naked. They seem to think they are above honestly examining the point of view of the majority of people. When ordinary, normal people can see that men-can-be-women-on-the-inside is bonkers and say so, you've really got to wonder where the elite have their heads stuck to keep arguing that actually it's the cutting edge of human rights.
The damaging garbage that is gender theory and critical race theory has really made it clear in my mind... these "academic" ideas are not smart at all. Someone like Posie sees things quite clearly, through the lens of women on the ground, without the fog of pretention.
So right. (I mean correct!) New Labour caused Brexit imo. (Sorry to go off topic). Working class women have no right to opinions apparently. We must only listen to our intellectual betters.
Deja vu. I wish this wouldn’t keep happening within feminism and the left, and I really wish it didn’t have to happen publicly and with personal attacks.
Women make up half the population and as we know the only thing we all have in common is our sex. There’s no way we’re all going to agree about everything and this particular battle involves the whole population so it can’t be policed by purists who think it belongs to them. Public in-fighting serves nobody but TRAs.
There’s also the conundrum of ‘Men, you should speak up. No, not like that!’
This is way more complex than I can sum up here and I don’t want to get into this pointless destructive debate, but I have to send a bit of solidarity. Don’t be demoralised.
I was a bit shocked to see that tweet. Really liked Sarah Ditum’s work in the Times. To me this has got way too snobby. Left wing is now the elite. I much prefer following people like Kimberley Isherwood. She says “ be part of the human race” or “be a disgrace”. Like Posie she’s down to earth and actually likes women and it really shows. This all reminds me of those privileged “TWAW” women in the workplace - who are never ever going to need a place in a Refuge - or a single sex prison cell- these vital services are not used by the privileged generally speaking.
Posie’s work is fantastic and I’m glad to have seen Helen Joyce at Brighton