Good call, Graham. We don't know what reasons may keep people from speaking out and, ultimately, the goal is to encourage debate and develop understanding. More people will come over to 'our side' if they feel they'll be welcomed rather than scorned.
Difficult to see the ' change in hearts', but worth a try. If we can welcome Rosie Duffield, we can sure be extending this courtesy to non swearing ones.
Haha! Well, I doubt Owen Jones, David Paisley, Aide/an Comerford and their ilk will be changing their minds in a hurry. But my concern is for the silent onlookers. The people outside, looking in, who are still not hugely au fait with this issue / debate, the people still making up their minds. We need to let them know that there is room for discussion, questions, changes of opinion etc.. And we need to make sure they know we're not the baddies!
Loved the conclusion. Reminds me of a chapter from Harry Potter, where Hermione and Dumbledore suggest Ron and Harry to be chums with Slytherin. Imagine being that with Sally Heine's , ha Dr Jane Claire Jones will have an attack !!!!!!!!!!😂
P.S: I see Your Point. There should be room for discussion, else it would make us an hypocrite, having said that, the room should be limited to the unbaised fellas, who are ready to open their minds 👍
Oh I agree, Gavin. Not for one moment am I suggesting forgiving Owen, Ado, David et al. I could cheerfully spend the rest of my life throwing Lego under their bare feet. But I don't think acting in anger or frustration, however justified, will do us or our 'cause' any good. It's not great optics.
My concern is for the onlookers - all those who are watching this debate, still not sure what to make of it all. Or those who once genuinely believed they were on the right side and now find that their minds are being changed as they learn more about it. We will not win them over if we behave with vitriol. Better to demonstrate that WE'RE the ones with dignity & integrity. It's the other side who do all the name-calling and mud-slinging. When they go low, we go high kinda thing...
A very dear friend (whose unassuming self-assurance and calm disposition I very much admire) once told me, "When you lose your temper, you lose the argument". I think he's right.
What?!?? You declared something, then someone disagreed in a thoughtful way explaining their reasoning, and you bloody well listened and even changed your mind. What madness is this?????
Love that you sent this. Was just pondering the same. So many are happy about this - and some that didn't quite get that it could be a thing. You've been a leading torch bearer on this dark mountainous path:-)
I agree. Surely the important thing is to end the madness, not rub people's noses in it when they're willing to admit to having been mistaken. More joy in heaven over one sinner who repents, and all that.
Thank God. I think the focus needs to stay on bringing people along and ending division... appealing to people’s interests. Some people will be persuaded by the big pharma angle, others by the safe spaces angle. Also, a focus on people who are helping young people accept and celebrate their bodies and their femininity/ masculinity, like Rachel Rooney etc, so parents and kids have more role models.
Nice point. Angles. It's about what will appeal to them, the people out there, what will peak them. Some are peaked through kids being given puberty blockers, others are concerned about Women being banned from livelihood, some are shocked with the Labour party , others over the way Women are treated as sexual objects, some are horrified by sex work and porn. If we need people to cross over the sides, we need to identify what would break them down and peak them the most and amplify that thing.
Agree many very brave people were given white feathers for saying “No” and refusing to wage war or invade other poor people and countries, women and children in imperialist resource wars.
"Jones, meanwhile, is in his butchers shop, and has received malicious letters which contain two white feathers — accusations of cowardice — and another half-feather (because the sender didn't feel he even deserved a whole one), saying that he shouldn't have left Clarke in the desert."
This also applies to people who were in the genderist fold and are starting to betray signs of #PeakTrans. Welcome them, don't pillory them for having been wrong, Most of us were at some stage.
I agree. I always rejected the exclusionary part of the TERF slur. Include the excluders lest be one is a rule I live by. Friends don’t let friends drink of the KoolAid. Mocking GIFs otoh...
I wonder about the true motives of the suffragettes in giving those men the feathers. Was it really patriotism or were they encouraging them to war in order to kill them all off. As with all the men dead the government would have no choice than to submit to the suffragettes demands.
There follows a mercifully brief and revisionist history of women’s suffrage...
It could be argued it was ultimately men that got women the vote by blowing themselves up in such huge numbers the women had to replace them in the work force. The women’s bombing campaign was irrelevant. It’s almost like the men said ‘You want the vote... Well you don’t want to blow things up like that... You want to blow things up like this.’
And they did. They blew loads of stuff and mainly themselves up and women got the vote.
Good call, Graham. We don't know what reasons may keep people from speaking out and, ultimately, the goal is to encourage debate and develop understanding. More people will come over to 'our side' if they feel they'll be welcomed rather than scorned.
Difficult to see the ' change in hearts', but worth a try. If we can welcome Rosie Duffield, we can sure be extending this courtesy to non swearing ones.
Haha! Well, I doubt Owen Jones, David Paisley, Aide/an Comerford and their ilk will be changing their minds in a hurry. But my concern is for the silent onlookers. The people outside, looking in, who are still not hugely au fait with this issue / debate, the people still making up their minds. We need to let them know that there is room for discussion, questions, changes of opinion etc.. And we need to make sure they know we're not the baddies!
Loved the conclusion. Reminds me of a chapter from Harry Potter, where Hermione and Dumbledore suggest Ron and Harry to be chums with Slytherin. Imagine being that with Sally Heine's , ha Dr Jane Claire Jones will have an attack !!!!!!!!!!😂
P.S: I see Your Point. There should be room for discussion, else it would make us an hypocrite, having said that, the room should be limited to the unbaised fellas, who are ready to open their minds 👍
Indeed! As Michelle Obama said, when they go low, we go high.
You are the second person I met who reminds me of JK Rowling 😊
Good grief, Gauri, that's one helluva compliment! Thank you SO much. I'm beaming & blushing! 😊😘 xx
I have a problem in that I am nowhere near being able to forgive AidenC or DavidP, we’re they to have a Damascene enlightenment.
The harm those two, and others have done is severe, tragic and was wilfully done.
Oh I agree, Gavin. Not for one moment am I suggesting forgiving Owen, Ado, David et al. I could cheerfully spend the rest of my life throwing Lego under their bare feet. But I don't think acting in anger or frustration, however justified, will do us or our 'cause' any good. It's not great optics.
My concern is for the onlookers - all those who are watching this debate, still not sure what to make of it all. Or those who once genuinely believed they were on the right side and now find that their minds are being changed as they learn more about it. We will not win them over if we behave with vitriol. Better to demonstrate that WE'RE the ones with dignity & integrity. It's the other side who do all the name-calling and mud-slinging. When they go low, we go high kinda thing...
A very dear friend (whose unassuming self-assurance and calm disposition I very much admire) once told me, "When you lose your temper, you lose the argument". I think he's right.
That’s a very insightful and fair summary.
I also adore your line about Lego. Superb 😃
I shall endeavour to be the bigger, more patient person and choose to go high.
Not always easy, I know! But worth the effort!
Doh! I literally just ordered a ton of them. Luckily the postage will be minimal given that they don’t weigh much.
:)
What?!?? You declared something, then someone disagreed in a thoughtful way explaining their reasoning, and you bloody well listened and even changed your mind. What madness is this?????
Love that you sent this. Was just pondering the same. So many are happy about this - and some that didn't quite get that it could be a thing. You've been a leading torch bearer on this dark mountainous path:-)
I agree. Surely the important thing is to end the madness, not rub people's noses in it when they're willing to admit to having been mistaken. More joy in heaven over one sinner who repents, and all that.
I agree. Golden bridge a good idea.
Thank God. I think the focus needs to stay on bringing people along and ending division... appealing to people’s interests. Some people will be persuaded by the big pharma angle, others by the safe spaces angle. Also, a focus on people who are helping young people accept and celebrate their bodies and their femininity/ masculinity, like Rachel Rooney etc, so parents and kids have more role models.
Nice point. Angles. It's about what will appeal to them, the people out there, what will peak them. Some are peaked through kids being given puberty blockers, others are concerned about Women being banned from livelihood, some are shocked with the Labour party , others over the way Women are treated as sexual objects, some are horrified by sex work and porn. If we need people to cross over the sides, we need to identify what would break them down and peak them the most and amplify that thing.
Agree many very brave people were given white feathers for saying “No” and refusing to wage war or invade other poor people and countries, women and children in imperialist resource wars.
I do love you Graham xxxx
I'll never forget Lance Corporal Jones (Dad's Army) being unjustly sent such a feather....
Wasn't it Godfrey? He'd been a conscientious objector, but also a stretcher carrier?
You could be right. So much for my "never forgetting"!
Phew! Hooray for my memory! Found this:
"Jones, meanwhile, is in his butchers shop, and has received malicious letters which contain two white feathers — accusations of cowardice — and another half-feather (because the sender didn't feel he even deserved a whole one), saying that he shouldn't have left Clarke in the desert."
https://dadsarmy.fandom.com/wiki/The_Two_and_a_Half_Feathers
:)
Ah, my mistake.
Allowing them to retreat with dignity and come across sounds like a good move I think.
I agree feathers are not a good idea idea. Sorry. Not the way to go.
This also applies to people who were in the genderist fold and are starting to betray signs of #PeakTrans. Welcome them, don't pillory them for having been wrong, Most of us were at some stage.
I agree. I always rejected the exclusionary part of the TERF slur. Include the excluders lest be one is a rule I live by. Friends don’t let friends drink of the KoolAid. Mocking GIFs otoh...
I wonder about the true motives of the suffragettes in giving those men the feathers. Was it really patriotism or were they encouraging them to war in order to kill them all off. As with all the men dead the government would have no choice than to submit to the suffragettes demands.
There follows a mercifully brief and revisionist history of women’s suffrage...
It could be argued it was ultimately men that got women the vote by blowing themselves up in such huge numbers the women had to replace them in the work force. The women’s bombing campaign was irrelevant. It’s almost like the men said ‘You want the vote... Well you don’t want to blow things up like that... You want to blow things up like this.’
And they did. They blew loads of stuff and mainly themselves up and women got the vote.
So really it was men that got women the vote.